Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407727 times)

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1700 on: January 14, 2024, 09:00:49 PM »
I'm no expert in halacha and therefore wont defend a position. This I heard from someone i consider to be a gadol , he said (to his talmidim, at the time I considered myself one), not to daven in a chabad house/ eat the shchita/ etc that practices those beliefs in open.

What his basis was in halacha, i didnt ask (nor did, or do, i really care).
This is a far cry from calling it AZ. Even if you would somehow call it apikorsus that still does not make it AZ.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1701 on: January 14, 2024, 09:02:11 PM »
Then that would fall under sinas chinam IMHO. Probably stemming from believing L"H or MS"R without verifying firsthand.
There are some things about hiskashrus and the role of a Rebbe described in Lubavitch seforim that made others nervous, certainly from a Litvish perspective those things are wrong.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1702 on: January 14, 2024, 09:03:53 PM »
Amaratzus and/or sinas chinam.
I don't really want to rehab what was once gone through, but there are definitely some who go very far that I imagine you can understand rabbonim being concerned about.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1703 on: January 14, 2024, 09:05:49 PM »
I don't really want to rehab what was once gone through, but there are definitely some who go very far that I imagine you can understand rabbonim being concerned about.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if some tunnel diggers beleifs are beyond the pale. What does that have to do with Chabad Houses? I'm not aware of any run by tunnel digger types.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1704 on: January 14, 2024, 09:06:19 PM »
I really don't know why you would say that. You also agree that there are lunatics in Lubavitch, and you don't hate them.The level of the Dveikus to the Rebbe is indeed to be admired, but no need to almost sound like a Xtian chas veshalom.
Unfortunately, there were many fights once upon a time. I'm talking about people who respect Lubavitch a lot and can't reconcile the factions who make the Rebbe as almost something Xtians would do.
How do you understand this קדושת לוי?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1705 on: January 14, 2024, 09:10:14 PM »
How do you understand this קדושת לוי?

That a tzadik has an aspect that the Shemesh and Yareach don't. A bechina does not mean full fledged.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1706 on: January 14, 2024, 09:12:27 PM »


Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if some tunnel diggers beleifs are beyond the pale. What does that have to do with Chabad Houses? I'm not aware of any run by tunnel digger types.

I am unfamiliar, but he was only referring to one

that practices those beliefs in open.



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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1707 on: January 14, 2024, 09:14:58 PM »

I am unfamiliar, but he was only referring to one
What is beyond the pale about saying יחי and waving yellow flags?

Nothing!!

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1708 on: January 14, 2024, 09:19:16 PM »

I am unfamiliar, but he was only referring to one
So he made a protest against something that doesn't exist?
Or he's protesting against all meshichists for what halachic reason exactly?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1709 on: January 14, 2024, 09:24:00 PM »
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if some tunnel diggers beleifs are beyond the pale.
Chances are that there are points of disagreements exactly where the line of beyond the pale is.



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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1710 on: January 14, 2024, 09:27:04 PM »
Chances are that there are points of disagreements exactly where the line of beyond the pale is.
OK, but that type of behavior/belief is the fringe of the fringe of the fringe and is rightly condemned.

You won't come across it in a Chabad House.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1711 on: January 14, 2024, 09:30:19 PM »
What is beyond the pale about saying יחי and waving yellow flags?

Nothing!!
I must have missed part of the conversation. How is saying Yechi on someone who is niftar already normal?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1712 on: January 14, 2024, 09:36:33 PM »
I must have missed part of the conversation. How is saying Yechi on someone who is niftar already normal?
Not considering something “normal” doesn’t make it heretical.

Say you believe that there is some ritualistic importance of not cutting hair until 3 years old. I may think that is off, but it’s not heretical.

Even if chances are it comes from pagan cultures ;) 

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1713 on: January 14, 2024, 09:41:44 PM »


This comes frighteningly close to avoda zara

Lets face it, there are those in chabad who think the rebbe is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent, even if they don't call him a God.

They interpret gummel tamuz as some sort of apotheosis even if they don't know the term.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1714 on: January 14, 2024, 09:42:21 PM »
Not considering something “normal” doesn’t make it heretical.

Say you believe that there is some ritualistic importance of not cutting hair until 3 years old. I may think that is off, but it’s not heretical.

Even if chances are it comes from pagan cultures ;)
Can you understand someone who would not want to rely on someone who believes the Rebbe was not niftar (not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes), even when it's not possible for anyone to live so long?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1715 on: January 14, 2024, 09:43:58 PM »
Can you understand someone who would not want to rely on someone who believes the Rebbe was not niftar (not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes), even when it's not possible for anyone to live so long?
Who said it's not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes/ma hu bchaim?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1716 on: January 14, 2024, 09:44:56 PM »


This comes frighteningly close to avoda zara

Lets face it, there are those in chabad who think the rebbe is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent, even if they don't call him a God.

They interpret gummel tamuz as some sort of apotheosis even if they don't know the term.
Lol. If they believed he was omnipotent, why didn't he bring moshiach?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1717 on: January 14, 2024, 09:45:37 PM »
Who said it's not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes?

It's more like a bechina of J, unfortunately, for many. Nobody thinks Yaakov avinu sees everything he does.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1718 on: January 14, 2024, 09:46:42 PM »
Lol. If they believed he was omnipotent, why didn't he bring moshiach?

You can ask the same question on Hashem. Same answer. He would have but we aren't on the level (translation, we haven't said enough yechis, or done enough mivtzoim).
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1719 on: January 14, 2024, 09:48:02 PM »
It's more like a bechina of J, unfortunately, for many. Nobody thinks Yaakov avinu sees everything he does.

Btw just clarifying that I don't believe the majority of Chabad believes this, but there are definitely some (many?) that do.
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