Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407742 times)

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1740 on: January 15, 2024, 12:23:53 AM »
Bumped into another one recently, thankfully now obsolete. See יו״ד קצח סעיף ו about the sheidim who tie hair up overnight and the dangers of cutting it of.

Famous one, jibes with the Targum Yonoson I posted there.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1741 on: January 15, 2024, 12:26:04 AM »
Famous one, jibes with the Targum Yonoson I posted there.
Not sure how thatís related, he talks about the hair issue? Wasnít that specifically about tying up the chasan and kallah?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1742 on: January 15, 2024, 12:26:28 AM »


, untying knots of chosson kallah,

Rav Heinemann brings this in his book about getting married
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1743 on: January 15, 2024, 12:26:47 AM »
Tell it to Rav Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who wrote a letter decrying the practice.

Presumably he was aware of the חת״ס :)

So apparently Reb Akivah Yosef writes just the opposite, from what I've seen bringing in his name!

Also there's this, from שו״ת ערוגת הבושם, who's words we can take any day instead of those of Goldhaber, who've officially established a record of fitting the Chasam Sofer's description to the tee.



Of course that's where the ridiculous Avodah Zara claim comes in handy, so you don't need any explanation now... Btw, Goldhaber takes the cake for attributing the most Jewish customs to Avodah zara.
 

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1744 on: January 15, 2024, 12:28:10 AM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1745 on: January 15, 2024, 12:30:13 AM »
So apparently Reb Akivah Yosef writes just the opposite, from what I've seen bringing in his name!
You must be looking it the wrong places ;)

Quote
The source for the Upsherin custom is highly problematic. R. Benyamin Shlomo Hamberger, Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz 3:251-267, attacks it for the following reasons: there is no mention of this custom in any of the rishonim. Now do not say they did not bother to write it down as we have very detailed discussions from the rishonim about this time period in a Jewish boyís life how to take him to cheder etc. (discussed by R. Hamburger at great length in volume two of his Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz 2:502-532) but there is no mention of the Upsherin custom.[4] Furthermore, he shows from many places in the times of the rishonim they cut their hair long before three years old. Another big question dealt with by Yaari and later on in more detail by Hamberger is the attributing the custom of Upsherin on Lag Ba-Omer to the Arizal. This attribution is problematic as it is documented that the Arizal did not cut hair the entire sefirah Ė including Lag Ba-Omer. This particular issue M. Benayahu does not find to be such a problem as it could be what he did to his son and what he himself did were two different things. Another issue R. Hamberger raises is even if there is such a minhag what does it have to do with Rashbi and where do we find such a thing to give a haircut in a grave yard? Further more he brings sources [amongst them a National Geographic Magazine!] which claim that it come from outside Ė Arabic influences. R. Hamburger does defend it a little that it still makes sense to keep if it comes from outside sources. However after seeing all this documentation of R Hamburger notes that it makes sense why we can not find sources in litvishe or Hungarian sources Ė as there are no early sources in rishonim!

Professor Sperber [Minhagei Yisrael 8: 13-30] takes Hambergerís discussion much further documenting how this comes from many completely outside ancient sources. R. Yechiel Goldhaber (author of the Minhagei ha-Kehillos) told me that he just saw a manuscript of a letter of R. Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who writes very sharply that this whole custom is taken form outside sources.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1746 on: January 15, 2024, 12:35:08 AM »
You must be looking it the wrong places ;)

 R. Yechiel Goldhaber (author of the Minhagei ha-Kehillos) told me that he just saw a manuscript of a letter of R. Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who writes very sharply that this whole custom is taken form outside sources.

Lol easy guess!

So it's in שו״ת רבי עקיבה יוסף סי קס״ט, which is not on Hebrew Books so can't look it up. In there he's supporting the minhag and gives tammim for it. Goldhaber remembered the name apparently but forgot the content, so he defaulted to his favorit avoda zara thing ;D ;D

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1747 on: January 15, 2024, 12:36:34 AM »
Goldhaber remembered the name apparently but forgot the content, so he defaulted to his favorit avoda zara thing ;D ;D
Unlikely IME

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1748 on: January 15, 2024, 12:37:57 AM »
Unlikely IME

Proven three times now. You should really stop listening to that person. Following the C"S will do better good.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1749 on: January 15, 2024, 12:39:05 AM »
Proven three times now
<citation needed>

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1750 on: January 15, 2024, 12:43:31 AM »
<citation needed>
Untying chosson kallah - Targum Yonoson
Shaving - Widespread minhag and the reasons given in the poskim
Cutting before three - Misquoted Reb Akivah Yosef Schlezinger who writes the opposite


Online Just A Jew

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1751 on: January 15, 2024, 12:46:47 AM »
For you is right

Nothing wrong with having a civil discussion about these matters.

I only speak for me. IMO, this discussion has zero toeles, as no one's mind is being changed. Additionally, it has been proven that not only does this topic inspire less-than-civil discussion, but the outright opposite of ahavas yiroel and even the bizayon of gedolim from all corners of the spectrum, compounding the waste of time with actual negativity. I stand by my opinion.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1752 on: January 15, 2024, 12:47:42 AM »
Untying chosson kallah - Targum Yonoson
Shaving - Widespread minhag and the reasons given in the poskim
Cutting before three - Misquoted Reb Akivah Yosef Schlezinger who writes the opposite
I think I conceded somewhat on number one
Number two: being widespread with reasons given doesnít disprove it
Number 3: have to you seen what he said he saw? No, you have not.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1753 on: January 15, 2024, 12:51:30 AM »
IMO, this discussion has zero toeles, as no one's mind is being changed. Additionally, it has been proven that not only does this topic inspire less-than-civil discussion, but the outright opposite of ahavas yiroel and even the bizayon of gedolim from all corners of the spectrum, compounding the waste of time with actual negativity. I stand by my opinion.
There is a toeles in better understanding others perspectives IMO.

I have a toeles from it.

Agree that it can get out of hand, feel free to chime in if it does, but to say that our conversation so far is being meakev the geulah - give me a break.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1754 on: January 15, 2024, 12:54:52 AM »
I think I conceded somewhat on number one
Number two: being widespread with reasons given doesnít disprove it
Number 3: have to you seen what he said he saw? No, you have not.
1. Great
2. Being widespread with reasons, and specifically done "after" the wedding, but still rooted in avodah zara which has been supposedly done "for" the wedding ::).  You can't disapprove it's not rooted in elephant customs either.
3. So we should just assume that he has seen a "manuscript" where he contradicts what he wrote in his tshuvos??
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 12:58:11 AM by EliJelly »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1755 on: January 15, 2024, 12:58:45 AM »
3. So we should just assume that he has seen a "manuscript" where he contradicts what he wrote in his tshuvos??
He attempts to speculate on the reason for the practice which was only a thing in EĒY at the time. (It is VERY recent that it became so widespread). It is perfectly understandable that he found out some info at a later time which caused him ti reject the whole thing

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1756 on: January 15, 2024, 01:01:03 AM »
He attempts to speculate on the reason for the practice which was only a thing in EĒY at the time. (It is VERY recent that it became so widespread). It is perfectly understandable that he found out some info at a later time which caused him ti reject the whole thing

You got a hold on the tshuva?
Anyways there is a host of seforim supporting it, and from the Arugas H'bosem we see it's not that recent for sure. 

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1757 on: January 15, 2024, 01:03:11 AM »
You got a hold on the tshuva?
Anyways there is a host of seforim supporting it.


Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1758 on: January 15, 2024, 01:19:29 AM »
Anyways there is a host of seforim supporting it, and from the Arugas H'bosem we see it's not that recent for sure.
It is traced back a couple hundred years, I think the Radvaz is the first.

Of course there are many seforim supporting it.

I think itís noteworthy that it wasnít a thing until a couple of hundred years ago, and itís very clear it was a thing in other cultures. I do not know for certain. It is not my minhag though my wife insists on it (and we wonder how it spreads) but I reserve the right to consider the possibility that it isnít כולו קודש.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1759 on: January 15, 2024, 01:27:59 AM »
It is traced back a couple hundred years, I think the Radvaz is the first.

Of course there are many seforim supporting it.

I think itís noteworthy that it wasnít a thing until a couple of hundred years ago, and itís very clear it was a thing in other cultures. I do not know for certain. It is not my minhag though my wife insists on it (and we wonder how it spreads) but I reserve the right to consider the possibility that it isnít כולו קודש.

Look, that's between you and your wife and I'm not taking sides here :D, I'll just stick to what the Chasam Sofer says.