Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 395750 times)

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4088
  • Total likes: 846
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #200 on: February 07, 2012, 05:01:40 PM »
An effort to what? Further agitate the conversation in an off-topic way?

No, I mean you went out of your way to say that you've been putting the R' in there except maybe once unintentionally, and then you left it out in the next paragraph.

(Was that the wrong type of smiley for the situation? I can never get those right.)

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31251
  • Total likes: 8144
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #201 on: February 07, 2012, 05:05:22 PM »
No, I mean you went out of your way to say that you've been putting the R' in there except maybe once unintentionally, and then you left it out in the next paragraph.

(Was that the wrong type of smiley for the situation? I can never get those right.)

FTFY. Again, I may feel a certain way, but I'm not going to consciously say things here to offend people.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25527
  • Total likes: 741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #202 on: February 07, 2012, 05:10:06 PM »
I just don't get one thing:

Presumably, everyone involved in this discussion is Jewish. That means there is no "your gadol" or "my gadol" or "your rebbe" or "my rebbe", at least with regard to the respect to be accorded them.

They are our gedolim, and our rabbeim. We are one. Like it or not.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31251
  • Total likes: 8144
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #203 on: February 07, 2012, 05:11:02 PM »
I just don't get one thing:

Presumably, everyone involved in this discussion is Jewish. That means there is no "your gadol" or "my gadol" or "your rebbe" or "my rebbe", at least with regard to the respect to be accorded them.

They are our gedolim, and our rabbeim. We are one. Like it or not.

Halevai. If this was the case Moshiach would be here already.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25527
  • Total likes: 741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #204 on: February 07, 2012, 05:17:40 PM »
If this was the case Moshiach would be here already.

If only.

My "lofty ideal" only accounts for our attitudes towards the leaders of a generation, which, unfortunately, says nothing of the others of the generation, as is evidenced by this very thread.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3383
  • Total likes: 1245
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #205 on: February 07, 2012, 05:20:40 PM »
My "lofty ideal" only accounts for our attitudes towards the leaders of a generation,
the "fighting" here appears to be over what constitutes "the leaders of [our] generation"

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25527
  • Total likes: 741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #206 on: February 07, 2012, 05:22:35 PM »
the "fighting" here appears to be over what constitutes "the leaders of [our] generation"

Are there people here who truly dispute that either of the two giants mentioned in this thread were not leaders of our generation???
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3383
  • Total likes: 1245
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #207 on: February 07, 2012, 05:24:53 PM »
Are there people here who truly dispute that either of the two giants mentioned in this thread were not leaders of our generation???
now that things appear to have cooled down a little I won't answer that.

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8425
  • Total likes: 78
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #208 on: February 07, 2012, 05:26:23 PM »
Jiminy, this whole thing did get out of hand.

I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post, since like so many hashkafic things, there is not true psak. I'll bring my Rav and sources, you'll have your Rav and sources, and we'll never reconcile. Therefore, that discussion is more or less pointless, and I specifically didn't bring it up.

I was trying to focus more on how it developed, how it's handled in Chabad, and what ppl think the future will bring. Not whether it's justified, or crazy, or logical, or avoda zara.

Since I was in this yeshiva 10 yrs ago, I haven't spoken with this Rav in a while, but I can try to get in touch with him to hear what he says.

I still want to discuss some of the more sane posts, such as CBS's first post, but I haven't had a chance. Every time I open the thread, there are 5 more pages added.

Hopefully tomorrow (I'm in Israel now, and it's late).

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3383
  • Total likes: 1245
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #209 on: February 07, 2012, 05:30:11 PM »
I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post,
Not outright.
You merely mentioned that you wont daven in a chabad minyan if possible...
(Implying that we might not be kosher for a minyan)


EDIT: I understand you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just pointing out how offensive it (inadvertently) turned out.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:36:56 PM by whYME »

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8425
  • Total likes: 78
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #210 on: February 07, 2012, 05:50:40 PM »
Not outright.
You merely mentioned that you wont daven in a chabad minyan if possible...
(Implying that we might not be kosher for a minyan)


EDIT: I understand you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just pointing out how offensive it (inadvertently) turned out.

You're correct, I did mention that, but only in context of my background. I tried to ensure it wouldn't enter into my questions at the end.

I will mention another concern that I forgot to add into my original post which is the potential for chillul hashem. I say this primarily in regards to the category of ppl who think he's still alive (and this was the approach of the bachur I spoke with). If I was either a gentile or a non-religious Jew, seeing many of the signs and comments in Israel, I would probably have had very demeaning thoughts of Judaism as a whole.
I personally didn't, since I have a history with Chabad, and a deep respect for what they have historically done in the US with their kiruv. So a few wackos weren't going to change my opinion of the movement as a whole.
However, as I tried telling this bachur, their campaign to have ppl recognize that the Rebbe is the mashiach (he was telling me that the Rebbe won't reveal himself until we are all mamluch him, meaning that we all recognize him as the mashiach), causes them to lose focus on what I feel they have done best for clal yisroel, which is kiruv.
Now... I understand that in Israel, they may not have as much of a focus on kiruv as they have in the US due to the different demographics, but still... to focus almost solely on this?!? cmon already

Now it's really late. I'll see ya'll tomorrow

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69526
  • Total likes: 18155
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #211 on: February 07, 2012, 06:12:58 PM »
(he was telling me that the Rebbe won't reveal himself until we are all mamluch him, meaning that we all recognize him as the mashiach
As I suspected, he sounds like a complete loon.

Now... I understand that in Israel, they may not have as much of a focus on kiruv as they have in the US due to the different demographics, but still... to focus almost solely on this?!? cmon already
There should be even a bigger focus in Israel on getting people to put tefillin on, etc, as the market is all jewish!

Focus solely? 
If you feel that way it's because the ones you hear making the most noise and see in the streets are the loons. 
How exactly would you see someone practicing being an anti-meshichist?  You wouldn't.

The same way that the spitting jews in beit shamesh don't represent chareidim unless you watch the Israeli news propaganda is the same way the loons don't represent Chabad unless you buy into the propaganda espoused by people that were anti-chabad long before this became an issue.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline moish

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10039
  • Total likes: 298
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: AA LT Plat, Avis, SPG Plat
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #212 on: February 07, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69526
  • Total likes: 18155
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #213 on: February 07, 2012, 06:39:17 PM »
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)
I'm not sure why the insistence to keep going back to this obviously sore subject, but see footnote 15
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 3524
  • Total likes: 558
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #214 on: February 07, 2012, 06:41:33 PM »
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=translate+madman+to+hebrew
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline JEWDA

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 3637
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Dansdeals PRESIDENTIAL Platinum Elite, SPG Gold, Hyatt Diamond, HHonors Gold, Avis Presidents Club, King Fisher Silver, Hertz #1 Club President Circle Gold, SIXT Platinum, PC Platinum Elite
Your Ad Can Be Here! PM For Lowest Rates.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4394
  • Total likes: 861
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #216 on: February 07, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »
Jiminy, this whole thing did get out of hand.

I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post, since like so many hashkafic things, there is not true psak. I'll bring my Rav and sources, you'll have your Rav and sources, and we'll never reconcile. Therefore, that discussion is more or less pointless, and I specifically didn't bring it up.

I was trying to focus more on how it developed, how it's handled in Chabad, and what ppl think the future will bring. Not whether it's justified, or crazy, or logical, or avoda zara.

Since I was in this yeshiva 10 yrs ago, I haven't spoken with this Rav in a while, but I can try to get in touch with him to hear what he says.

I still want to discuss some of the more sane posts, such as CBS's first post, but I haven't had a chance. Every time I open the thread, there are 5 more pages added.

Hopefully tomorrow (I'm in Israel now, and it's late).
to echo wYME's  last post, your original comment is the part I personally found most offensive in the whole discussion.

when haters and extremists say hateful things and consider each other outside the pale, that is to be expected.

what bothers me here is that Reuven, who was trying to honestly have a friendly halachic discussion, sees nothing wrong with
When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan,
that scares me. truth is, it's not Reuven's problem, it's his Rav's.
when it becomes okay to excomunicate an entire community- and such behavior is considered mainstream- that is scary.

consider that Reuven is being asked to consider an entire community of jes, with which he has a warm relationship, as worse than a Jew who is completely secular ('cause you'd count them for a Minyan) notwithstanding his own 'debt' in Yidishkeit towards said community. and all 'Al Hasafek', that they 'may' hold certain beliefs, which, even if they did, would not be a violation of Halacha at all, much disqualify them from 'Chelek Belokei Yisroel'

Again, we're used to getting this from the fringes, it's when it becomes mainstream that it gets scary

Offline mclovin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2331
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #217 on: February 07, 2012, 07:14:09 PM »
@McLovin

1. Jewda isn't the OP, Reuven is.
2. Your questions were all addressed.
3, your contradict yourself as follows:
Quote from: mclovin on Today at 02:32:06 pm

    im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could be

then
Quote from: mclovin on Today at 02:37:16 pm

    why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe
1) none of my posts (as far as i remember) were ever directed at reuven so not sure why you thought they were. therefore when u said OP i figured u meant the post i was responding to.
2) eventually they were all answered and i agreed when they were
3)ok- im not trying to figure out specifics bec i dont care who mashiach is. as i said before i'm just trying to understand according to your (lubavitch) own logic why the rebbe is mashiach, (meaning that someone dead can be mashiach, which i had never heard of before). and yes dan answered that

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 9421
  • Total likes: 438
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #218 on: February 07, 2012, 07:14:14 PM »
I don't want to pour any salt on the wounds here, however I had a rav (some 10k people in his kehilla), who himself is mainstream chabad (or so it looks like), and told a relative of mine not to step in the meshichisten minyan. (they were typically waiting outside to get passerby to complete their minyan).

Offline Cbs

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 4483
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Programs: HHonors Gold, Delta Diamond Medallion, AA Platinum Pro
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #219 on: February 07, 2012, 09:13:02 PM »
i havent had a chance to reply to a few things that i wanted to make clear in order that i dont get accused and it shouldnt be taken in the wrong way, because it seems some people have a hard to time understanding things. - (sorry for bringing the subject back again - but im a diff time zone)

the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, [and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107).]
thats simply not true
Please provide proof to what you are saying (just like you wanted proof the other way around otherwise please dont say it.)


Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?
just a small question that has to do with insecurity etc... why do u stress zatzal? u can just write it regularly, what are you trying to prove here? or are you just making it caps to show "in your face" type of thing.
i understand that you respect him and i have nothing against you on that. and i cant blame you otherwise cuz i would do the same thing if my Rebbe C"V said something horrible about someone else i would say thats the way it is. theres only ONE problem: which is the Lubavitcher Rebbe would never say such a thing about anyone.
i only have tainos on him, why did he say that against the rebbe!

now regarding Moshiach - let me make this clear for everyone, i agree with Dan 100% and i quote him: "If he gathers all the jews in Israel and performs the signs that he is moshiach then so be it. I would then ask Eliyahu how could a man who had so much sinas chinum turn out to be moshiach, but to think that would hinder his acceptance is foolhardy."

theres only one problem, that i dont think someone that has sinas Chinum and says what he says qualifies to be Moshiach.

And if the lubavitcher rebbe will be moshiach I'll ask Eliyahu How a rebbe Like that (I wont go into details) could be moshiach.
thats because you simply cant, and you are just answering back like a child that has nothing to say, so you are repeating what Dan said just the other way around.
please bring some basis to what you are saying.

thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs
?? what makes you think so? i saay like i said above in this post, that if (in inyan geredt)he is Moshiach than obviously i will accept it. i just personally think that, that if wont happen, besides for the fact that he doesnt qualify halachakly. (and pls save your breath and dont tell me the Rebbe doesnt qualify halachikly because that simply isnt true)
 
i think he already did when he called him a rasha which besides for being quite a stupid and assur thing to say was hypocritical
i never stated my opinion on who is moshiach and who i would accept. the only thing i said that he acted in the ways of a rasha by saying what he said (especially about a tzadik). and the only thing you can imply from here which is what i believe, that someone that falls into the category of saying something like a rasha would say than he cant be Moshiach. - but i never said if he was moshiach i wouldnt accept, on the contrary i would (why wouldnt anyone?) but practically speaking its irrelevant if i would or wouldn't.

why was it a stupid thing to say, and why was it hypocritical??

i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
and as for cbs i was being mocheh for kovod torah and he is welcome to answer back
you are saying i accused him as if i need to bring proof of what he did. its clear from all the proofs brought here on the forum (texts/videos - and if u cant find them google them) and much more proof that it was sinas chinum so im just stating a fact.
secondly whats worng with mentioning something in public about someone that said  something horrible about my rebbe - IN PUBLIC
and as for kovod hatora, i will agree with you that he was way more learned then me and knew/learned a lot of torah and but that doesnt change facts of life!

From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
+1,000,000

I apologize for offending anyone, but it is extremely difficult to have a calm and rational conversation about someone who calls your Rebbe a madman and your religion a cult and not part of Judaism.
couldnt of said it better!

You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)
do u even realize that you are constantly making a fool out of yourself? this is my 3rd quote to you in this post, and everyone just gets worse then the next!

I dont understand your obsession with R Shach believe me had the rebbe said the same about R Shach we wouldnt have cared much and certainly not still today, why the insecurity about the rebbe from his own followers ?
HAD the rebbe! - Had i jumped off a roof .... what exactly are you proving here?
the Rebbe would never say something like that never mind a small insult he would never say.