Messianism among Lubavitch

[Drago]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time.

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

let me first start off with, that i agree with some others here that since everyones got their own opinion etc..itll be very hard to have a normal conversation, and i also tried having conversations with people that fall into the category you're describing and in my eyes there is no use in trying to convince or even discuss opinions with them because the conversation wont go anywhere at all. (hours conversations i mean!)

i will now quote a few things that maybe i can clarify -and some things i wont discuss because some things ppl may take in the wrong way.
1st things first, there is no 2 Chabad Movements. There is one Chabad Movement. The categories you described can be said as "in the Chabad movement there are diff views/perspectives.

#1 - the only people that believe such a thing are and must be (very) crazy. that is against nature for something like that to be and many many people witnessed a levaya, and especially that the Rebbe's health situatuon in the last 2 years before '94 was grave and did not get any better. - i dont think i need to explain it really but if you believe it then you fall into my category of someone i refuse to discuss this matter with.

#2 - this is a tough matter to discuss, and true that most people (if not everyone that doesnt fall into Categoriy #1) believe this. so here is where the 2 views are: theres Meshichistim (we're not discussing #1 meshichistim) and "anti Meshichistim". the main difference is, if the guy will go around publicizing the paraphrase "yechi..." . He who does publicize yechi, does not believe that the rebbe is physically living, by saying Yechi he is pronouncing that the Rebbe is Moshiach and when he says he shall live forever it means, through his "children"/chassidim doing what he wanted from them and following in his path - it spiritually is making him live forever and there is no difference now that there was a physical concealment. and one should not think that  because he was niftar, that the rebbe is less holy and it wont help to ask brachos etc....(this concept is explained in chassidus in depth and length.) and this guy holds that this is what the Rebbe wanted when he said and made big campaigns that we should publicize the Coming Moshiach and how its so close, that we should tell people that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
The "Anti-meshichist" will will not publicize that the Rebbe is Moshiach (A.K.A Yechi) although he may beleive that in his heart, but that is nothing wrong because everyone can have their own belief that they keep to themselves. On the other hand he doesnt disagree with this that the Rebbe is spiritually living forever and by us doing and learning his torah etc.. keeps him "alive" (like ya'akov avinu lo meis). and he obviously will fulfill the campaign of the Rebbe to tell people Moshiach is near, but not discussing who it is, because that is not the point and it can cause conflict.

#3 - im not sure what u mean by embodiment of G-D. so if you will clarify that i can try to explain it.

Another point on #1, that mainly the people that say this stem from the Yeshiva Gedola in Tzfas. and they are a minority although they do make a very large noise, and they will not ever visit the Rebbe's kever for this reason! so that is off my Map.
there are plenty of people in US that practice #2 in both perspectives and regarding #1 those bochurim and few other people mainly come from Tzfas as stated above and they learn or live in Crown Heights becasue the want to be with the Rebbe in his shul!
regarding the Shlit"a , so besides the tzfatim that will obviously write that - so the Meshichistim in #2 will sometimes write that because they dont like to mention the Rebbe passed away because it shows on something less holy and since he's not physically here so people may take the wrong approach at it, so they write Shlit"a
as for the disturbing videos you see, those are tzfatim in #1 mainly, and some Meshichistim in #2 that want to still feel the way it was before '92 and they believe that any minute now the moshiach will come and the Rebbe will walk through the path and they want to be ready for it. but again its mainly #1.
True that in israel its much stronger there, and mainly thats because its easier to do it there because everyone is jewish and can understand whats going on. it practically makes no sense to do what they do in manhattan or else where where majority isnt jewish.
and there are many more tzfatim in israel which go crazy and make lound noises.
1. i think since the Rebbe made a huge campaign about moshiach in the later years and like no other rebbe has done, so it triggered somthing there, and since the Rebbe was so Great in the world  (even in the eyes of other Rebbe's and other chassidim) so it was something very special, and most people thought that since there was so much Moshiach talk etc.. that moshiach was coming then any minute, and couldnt take in the fact, (face the fact) that something like a passing away was possible at that state, and everyone then believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach. so when the passing came about there was a group of people that were dancing and happy because they said forsure moshiach is coming now and from there it spread.

2. Yes but in israel its more publicized

3. i answered that question above

4. i dont want to state my opinion in any of this (i tried to avoid it in this post) for the reason that it will start a major arguement and i dont like to discuss things that have no end to it. here im just stating Facts. - and all i can say is that #1 people have some issues

5. that i dont know and i just hope it doesnt go too much farther, because a lot of this is pushing people away from Chabad for no good reason and a bunch of stupidity.

i hope i clarified the situation for you, even though ive got much more to say but i dont want to discuss.
if you have any questions on this feel free to ask!

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.

[Drago]

My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.

Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!

[Drago]

+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!

If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?

[Drago]

how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.

Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.

[Drago]

Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.

[Drago]

I am loving the passion but as whYME suggested before can we please just keep to answering halachic questions. If anyone in this thread actually wants to accomplish anything let us have an orderly discussion of weather chabad is going against halacha or not. That is really the only thing that matters. Either its wrong or not because if its not wrong then to ask someone to justify a personal feeling that is inline with halacha is pointless and silly IMO.

Thanks JJ

I purposely kept the discussion away from a pure halachik discussion, b/c for every source A, someone will have source B. And it will simply cause a back n' forth that will arrive at no resolution. (It's one one of the beautiful yet frustrating aspects of the halachik process.)

I'm more interested in the sociological background and implications, as well as ppl's personal observations and experiences.

[Cbs]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time.

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.

that took a log time to answer!
Anyways...

They average non meshichist does not think of the meshichist as non chabad person or from another movement. he may think the guy is nuts. and i didnt say i wouldnt talk to that guy, all i said was i refuse to discuss this matter with such a person (the whole meshichist thing)

The reason why other Rabbeim dont have Yechi said about them is because they had Children and right when they passed away everyone knew who the next Rebbe would be so there was no reason to say yechi. The whole point of Yechi is to say and show how it doesnt end etc...so since the Rebbe didnt have children and there was no upcoming Rebbe after him (usually the child would) so people will say Yechi .

not necessarily most ppl that say yechi (or strong believers) come from Tzfas. i meant to say that there is a large yeshiva of about 400+ students there and since theyre young and loud and have lots of energy so they make a lot of noise. and many of those come to Brooklyn to study in 770 (the Rebbe's Shul) so ppl categorize them as tzfatim. but in any case, no one really challenges them, but on the other hand the anti meshechistim dont usually pay much attention to them - meaning they have different agendas - so it works out that way that they usually dont interact with each other
Regarding Chabad Shluchim you will see that in many places in India and in other countries as well (maybe few cities in america) there are Chabad houses that plaster Yechi all over and they call themselves Shluchim but they are not under the HQ of Chabad shluchim. - they make their own convention every year.

[Drago]

Thanks CBS!
I have to re-read your latest post after I go through all the others.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.

[lcyitz]

@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist!

[jj1000]

@Drago Where were you a year ago???     

Who has patience for this again.

[Dan]

@Drago Where were you a year ago???     

Who has patience for this again.

+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.

Start a new thread please.

[Cbs]

Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!

let me try to answer for him:
when he says they are anti he means to say that they dont publicize it or hold of publicizing it, and what they believe is a whole nother story. not everyone says what they beleif and people dont talk about it because its irrelevant and not important. but as Dan said earlier that most Anti's do believe that its very possible that he CAN be moshiach and im saying that some actually believe that.

i think that comparison you are making is totally off - people think of the Rebbe as a Pure Tzaddik and not even the meshichistim think he is the son of G-D.
look back in history at any great tzaddik, are you going to say the same thing about them, that ppl thought he was the son of G-D?

belief is belief. so there really isnt any difference between the israeli meshichist and the american meshichist. the only diff you may see is that one is louder then the next because in israel its more open.

i think your last question has been answered plenty in this thread as far as i can remember from so long ago. but in short, the Rebbe spoke so much about moshiach and said how this is the last generation before moshiach and there was plenty of basis to say he qualified to be moshiach, now that he passed away it doesnt take away anything from before besides the fact that he is not living physically with us, and as Dan said above there are plenty mkorois to say that moshiach can come from the dead. that said why should the lubavitchers think different just because he physically passed away. besides the fact the ppl think theyre rebbe will be moshiach etc   so if you understand why ppl thought that way prior to his passing then you should understand now that to the lubavitchers we dont look at it as any different besides for the physical part.

btw did you read through the whole back and forth posts in this whole thread?

If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?

my guess is not. but i may be wrong.

Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.

this is where the problem starts because many of these rosh kollels simply hate chabad and get it into the brain of these 18 yr olds and they walk away with a small "hatred"
though i have had plenty of friends in the past that have walked away the exact opposite and i was in yeshiva in israel at the time and it seemed they like chabad a lot (unless they were putting up a show ) incl. a sibling of yours if im not mistaken!

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.

in my eyes it seemed that it wasnt as prevalent as the Rebbe's and the reason being .....i dont want to get into to start any fights so lets just say many stories ive heard about the rebbe and many stories that i know ppl to testify about the rebbe i have never heard and i dont think anyone has ever heard such stories by many gedolei Hador.

 

[Cbs]

@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist!

lol...you not that bad

@Drago Where were you a year ago???     

Who has patience for this again.

+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.

+100
i had plenty of time back then but now...not so much but since u asked i answered. but i dont think this should continue

[Drago]

@Drago Where were you a year ago???     

Who has patience for this again.

The thread lasted from Feb 6 to Feb 10.
That isn't exactly too long of a discussion period.

@JJ, Dan, CBS
I understand the hesitancy to continue the discussion. I'll ask the follow-up questions I have, and if no one chooses to answer, so be it.

[Lamdan]

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.

Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.

[Drago]

Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.

Miracles, as in supernatural, or as in tefilla which was followed by a refuah?

[Achas Veachas]

Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.

What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)

[Drago]

Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)

+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.

[Lamdan]

What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)

+1

[Lamdan]

+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.

we're getting influenced, American Jews are all getting influenced from each other, it's inevitable.