Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 379342 times)

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #380 on: January 14, 2013, 04:03:15 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.
Nothing about him accepting a job, but a change in his shitta. :)
I'll try to find it tomorrow.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #381 on: January 14, 2013, 04:05:16 PM »
but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #382 on: January 14, 2013, 04:06:30 PM »
It most definitely existed then as well.  Anti-Chabad sentiment is very ingrained.
Stop trying to paint the Anti- Chabad sentiment as Sinah or Sinas Chinam, even if it makes you feel more comftorable. The sentiment is because of major problems the Litveshe have with Chabad's hashkafa and actions.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #383 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:01 PM »
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
From who? I hang around older Chashuve Litveshe Rabbanim all day, believe it or not some of them are open minded and honest, and they know the history very well. They are not trying to defend themselves, in fact they would rather if the Chofetz Chaim was as against Chabad as they are, they're just saying the facts. Don't -1 a field you're simply not qualified to talk about - litveshe history.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #384 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:14 PM »
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chabad chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.   The rest is just built on top of that.
And yes, it has been going on in America since the rabbeim came here.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #385 on: January 14, 2013, 04:15:42 PM »
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.  The rest is just built on top of that.
That may be the lubavitcher view of the litveshe sentiment, but it's pure BS (to quote you). It's not hatred, the word "hatred" just makes you feel comfortable, mature litvacks do not hate lubavitchers, maybe the kids in your elementary school did, but that's how kids think. It's a strong ideological opposition, a very very strong ideological opposition, if you want to preceive that as hatred, go ahead. I am a kalte litvak, from a crowd that has strong ideological opposition to lubavitch, but I love you - Dan, like a brother from another mother (mushy). 
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #386 on: January 14, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #387 on: January 14, 2013, 04:21:53 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #388 on: January 14, 2013, 04:22:38 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?

ETA- your statement that Dan can't talk about litvish history is silly. 1. He is talking about chabad history and its dealings with others. 2. It's like any history if your not greek you can't talk about the history of greece?  :o 3. If neither of you were there you'd have the same authority to talk about it as you please. 4. History always has 2 sides. And even when something happening the 2 sides see it different, so could be your both right just from different perspectives.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:26:44 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #389 on: January 14, 2013, 04:25:59 PM »
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate? I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate. And do we really have to talk about something we're clueless about like the fights 200 years ago. let's talk about the last 50 years - where we're actually not clueless.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:29:17 PM by Lamdan »
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #390 on: January 14, 2013, 04:28:13 PM »
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
See above edit.

A tzadik is beis din? Please show me a source for beating someone up, and how it applies to chassidim. Also did you read this whole thread?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #391 on: January 14, 2013, 04:30:34 PM »
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
Wow, what a philosophy.  So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:53:12 PM by Dan »
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #392 on: January 14, 2013, 04:40:11 PM »
Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
I believe that is what orthodox Judaism is today. But there are many many other aspects to Judaism not encompassed in one mesorah, for example shulchan aruch is a new invention. It seems like you answered your own questions throughout this thread with every question you asked, all you have to do is read it differently. Chassidus doesn't bring a new religion, it stresses certain aspects and explains others. There are hundreds of sforim explaining what chassidus is, and to "corner" a chossid and demand an explanation is a bit silly.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #393 on: January 14, 2013, 06:10:44 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a secular jew's ideology while loving the person?
FTFY
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #394 on: January 14, 2013, 06:12:50 PM »
Wow, what a philosophy. So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #395 on: January 14, 2013, 06:31:42 PM »
FTFY
J
ust to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?

Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #396 on: January 14, 2013, 06:55:48 PM »

Just to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
1. I'm not equating a secular jew with a lubavitcher, I'm just explaining how you can be very strongly against an ideology but still love a person.
2. I was joking!! Thus the  :P .  This topic is obviously so sensitive to you that you didn't realize I was joking.

Believe it or not, hot blooded Lamdan is going to now tell chilled calm Dan - Dude, CHILL OUT!  :) ;) :D ;D :P
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #397 on: January 15, 2013, 05:43:11 AM »
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
This may help you build your case, although I haven't read it yet.
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/brisker-wikleaks-b-o-m-b-part-ii.html


Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #398 on: January 15, 2013, 05:55:59 AM »
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s.
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #399 on: January 15, 2013, 09:02:41 AM »
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.