Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148298 times)

Online jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #390 on: January 14, 2013, 04:28:13 PM »
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
See above edit.

A tzadik is beis din? Please show me a source for beating someone up, and how it applies to chassidim. Also did you read this whole thread?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #391 on: January 14, 2013, 04:30:34 PM »
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
Wow, what a philosophy.  So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:53:12 PM by Dan »
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #392 on: January 14, 2013, 04:40:11 PM »
Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
I believe that is what orthodox Judaism is today. But there are many many other aspects to Judaism not encompassed in one mesorah, for example shulchan aruch is a new invention. It seems like you answered your own questions throughout this thread with every question you asked, all you have to do is read it differently. Chassidus doesn't bring a new religion, it stresses certain aspects and explains others. There are hundreds of sforim explaining what chassidus is, and to "corner" a chossid and demand an explanation is a bit silly.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #393 on: January 14, 2013, 06:10:44 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a secular jew's ideology while loving the person?
FTFY
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #394 on: January 14, 2013, 06:12:50 PM »
Wow, what a philosophy. So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #395 on: January 14, 2013, 06:31:42 PM »
FTFY
J
ust to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?

Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #396 on: January 14, 2013, 06:55:48 PM »

Just to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
1. I'm not equating a secular jew with a lubavitcher, I'm just explaining how you can be very strongly against an ideology but still love a person.
2. I was joking!! Thus the  :P .  This topic is obviously so sensitive to you that you didn't realize I was joking.

Believe it or not, hot blooded Lamdan is going to now tell chilled calm Dan - Dude, CHILL OUT!  :) ;) :D ;D :P
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #397 on: January 15, 2013, 05:43:11 AM »
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
This may help you build your case, although I haven't read it yet.
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/brisker-wikleaks-b-o-m-b-part-ii.html


Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #398 on: January 15, 2013, 05:55:59 AM »
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s.
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #399 on: January 15, 2013, 09:02:41 AM »
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #400 on: January 15, 2013, 09:07:05 AM »
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.
What's the connection between the 2? ::)
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #401 on: January 15, 2013, 09:09:51 AM »
What's the connection between the 2? ::)
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #402 on: January 15, 2013, 09:25:28 AM »
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..
The fact that the Rebbe was arrested twice is well documented. The fact that it was a Messirah by Missnagdim is also well documented. The original Messirah papers are still around and they have been published extensively.
The fact that LATER people realized the Alter Rebbe's greatness not only in Chassidus but also in 'Nigleh' only highlights a point made earlier; that if the leaders of the Missnagdim in THAT generation would have done their due duty of ושאלת ודרשת וחקרת היטב it would have saved much Tza'ar and Ogmas Nefesh for generations to come.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #403 on: January 15, 2013, 09:28:36 AM »
...and actually you do raise a good point! Starting from approximately the days of the Tzemach Tzedek, the Hisnagdus has pretty much died down, it was only during the WWII and subsequent events that certain individuals felt a need to bring it back up ved"l
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #404 on: January 15, 2013, 09:57:08 AM »
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.


You managed to find a nut. There are nuts in every sect btw thought Tzfat does seem to be blessed disproportionately.
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