Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148424 times)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #435 on: January 15, 2013, 02:32:32 PM »
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
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Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #436 on: January 15, 2013, 02:33:18 PM »
You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.

would you say if aish hatorah effected the most jews and diversity of people through their kiruv that that made rav noach weinberg the nasi hador?         or "same as Moshe Rabbeinu"?         

roiv bnei torah in the velt held rav shach to be gadol hador.  that was never the case for the rebbe.  only his chassidus and a lot of not frum yidden/balei teshuva, that didn't really know much about yiddishkeit bichlal, certainly not who's qualified to be the "nasi hador".     

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #437 on: January 15, 2013, 02:38:17 PM »
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.
All leaders of klall yisroel in every generation served the kllal were respected and are remembered but the next generation always took over and continued the chain of leadership for each generation, R shach is not currently a leader. Neither the rebbe.
The only leader in history that has unique "staying power" is mosheh rabeinu, to set yourselves up that this rebbe is more unique a leader than say the baal hatanya is silly.
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #438 on: January 15, 2013, 02:39:50 PM »
I have finally read through this entire thread and would like to add/clarify a few things. I hope it is coherent enough and not to disorganized...  First I would like to further emphasize the distinction some have tried to make between hate and strong disagreement and disapproval of a certain ideology.  While there are always people who will turn a purely shem shamayin ideeoligical battle into a hateful immature fight that does not discredit the ones who are sincere about their belief in the ideology being wrong yet love those who believe in it because they are Jews.  It is perfectly understandable that someone from the lubavitch perspective will have strong emotional dislike and intellectual disagreement for what Rav Shach said.  On the other hand, from an intellectual viewpoint can you understand that a gadol can feel that there are people who have views and haskafas that are counter to Torah haskafah yet they are being confused as acceptable positions.  The gadol therefore feels he needs to take a very strong stance to counter this perceived negative influence. The gadol also feels that there is a person who is responsible for it and he must be discredited lshem shamayim? (i am not saying it is right in this case nor whether you should agree, nor that you shouldn't be upset about it, I am just saying it is possible for a such a position to exist about something and if a gadol feels it is true that it makes sense that he would act that way and not God forbid be a rasha). To say that the Rebbe would never do such thing seems a little funny-why not? If he felt that a different segment of Judaism was leading people down the wrong path shouldn't he come out very strongly and do what is necessary to stop distance it from his understanding of acceptable torah hashkafa?
Second, Dan is correct in stating that the strong disagreement (liberal substitute for hate- see my first point) existed before messianism.  However, it is the same issue that many gedolim were concerned about in the Lubavitch movement that they believe manifested itself in Messianism.  As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".
Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin). 

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #439 on: January 15, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »
Great debate skills! I am impressed.
I elaborated, sorry, that automatic  :D

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #440 on: January 15, 2013, 02:40:28 PM »
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.
All leaders of klall yisroel in every generation served the kllal were respected and are remembered but the next generation always took over and continued the chain of leadership for each generation, R shach is not currently a leader. Neither the rebbe.
The only leader in history that has unique "staying power" is mosheh rabeinu, to set yourselves up that this rebbe is more unique a leader than say the baal hatanya is silly.
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.
I LOVE THIS REPLY!!! Everyone not chabad said EXACTLY this the day after gimel tamuz and the best reply possible to you is that chabad shlichus has grown exponentially since then. The facts speak for themselves. people said chabad would be dead in a few years, look were were are now.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #441 on: January 15, 2013, 02:42:26 PM »
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.

I have no such dreams, as I've already said any lubavitcher will be happy with moshaich whoever he may be.

But as long as there are people willing to dedicate their lives to fulfill the Rebbe's vision he will never fade away.
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Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #442 on: January 15, 2013, 02:44:32 PM »
would you say if aish hatorah effected the most jews and diversity of people through their kiruv that that made rav noach weinberg the nasi hador?   
No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #443 on: January 15, 2013, 02:45:28 PM »
No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)
Bingo.
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Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #444 on: January 15, 2013, 02:53:09 PM »
roiv bnei torah in the velt held rav shach to be gadol hador.  that was never the case for the rebbe.  only his chassidus and a lot of not frum yidden/balei teshuva, that didn't really know much about yiddishkeit bichlal, certainly not who's qualified to be the "nasi hador".     
1. gadol hador nasi hador
2. Maybe if rav shach cared for all yidden acted as leader to all of klal yisroal, not just the (non-chassidic) bnei torah he would be considered a gadol hador outside of the bnei torah velt.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:02:43 PM by whYME »

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #445 on: January 15, 2013, 02:55:16 PM »
Dammit! I told myself I'm not getting dragged into this again...

Why did you have to revive this thread?!

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #446 on: January 15, 2013, 02:57:59 PM »
1. gadol hador nasi hador
2. Maybe if rav shach cared for all yidden, not just the (non-chassidic) bnei torah he would be considered a gadol hador outside of the bnei torah velt.
Can we please not get into a Rav Shach debate. Yare could tell you he did care for all yiden that's why he tried getting them to stop believing in kfira...
I have finally read through this entire thread and would like to add/clarify a few things. I hope it is coherent enough and not to disorganized...  First I would like to further emphasize the distinction some have tried to make between hate and strong disagreement and disapproval of a certain ideology.  While there are always people who will turn a purely shem shamayin ideeoligical battle into a hateful immature fight that does not discredit the ones who are sincere about their belief in the ideology being wrong yet love those who believe in it because they are Jews.  It is perfectly understandable that someone from the lubavitch perspective will have strong emotional dislike and intellectual disagreement for what Rav Shach said.  On the other hand, from an intellectual viewpoint can you understand that a gadol can feel that there are people who have views and haskafas that are counter to Torah haskafah yet they are being confused as acceptable positions.  The gadol therefore feels he needs to take a very strong stance to counter this perceived negative influence. The gadol also feels that there is a person who is responsible for it and he must be discredited lshem shamayim? (i am not saying it is right in this case nor whether you should agree, nor that you shouldn't be upset about it, I am just saying it is possible for a such a position to exist about something and if a gadol feels it is true that it makes sense that he would act that way and not God forbid be a rasha). To say that the Rebbe would never do such thing seems a little funny-why not? If he felt that a different segment of Judaism was leading people down the wrong path shouldn't he come out very strongly and do what is necessary to stop distance it from his understanding of acceptable torah hashkafa?
Second, Dan is correct in stating that the strong disagreement (liberal substitute for hate- see my first point) existed before messianism.  However, it is the same issue that many gedolim were concerned about in the Lubavitch movement that they believe manifested itself in Messianism.  As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".
Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin). 

I wish you would of broken that into smaller paragraphs it was a bit hard on the eyes, but I think i agree with what you said in regards to gedolim disagreeing.

As for a mesora, as long as there is a halachik source whether you follow it or not you can't call it kfira. Who paskened on this before? How would you know which mesora to follow, its not exactly a daily talked about halacha over the past many years. If a beis din decides to follow a certain rishon even if that wasn't the norm until then isn't that halachikly ok? I definitely wouldn't call it kfira. No?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #447 on: January 15, 2013, 03:03:49 PM »
as long as there is a halachik source whether you follow it or not you can't call it kfira.
There are many.
The Rosh (a former litvisher and now a major anti-meshichist) once ripped his brother Immanuel Schochet for saying that the belief that moshiach could come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm of orthodox jewry, saying that is well documented in Orthodox Judaism as a possibility and you shouldn't say "doesn't fall outside the realm."
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #448 on: January 15, 2013, 03:07:14 PM »
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.
Just a story (yes I am a Chossid after all :) ): After the Rebbe maharash (the 4th Chabad Rebbe) passed away, there was a period of 10 years that no "officialy" accepted the Nessius. The Chassidim would address their questions to 2 of the Rebbes children, R' Zalman Aharon (the RaZ"A. the oldest son) and Reb Shalom Dovber (the RaSha"B, the one who later became the 5th Chabad Rebbe).
During this period a Chassid once asked the Raz"a: "even if you don't think you are worthy of the title Rebbe, at least do it for the Kavod of your father". The Raz"a answered "It is precisely for the Kavod of my father that I do NOT want to take the Nessius. if people will see me acting as Rebbe they will assume that my father was just like me".
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #449 on: January 15, 2013, 03:16:05 PM »
Are you talking about the Alter Rebbe's letter or about the Charson Genizah (A collection of letters of the ba'al Shem Tov and his students over which there is a controversy)?
Alter Rebbe's letters
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