Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148284 times)

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #615 on: January 16, 2013, 01:50:41 PM »
You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
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Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #616 on: January 16, 2013, 01:52:29 PM »
Sorry, but if you asked any meshichist if they would accept R' Shach as moshiach if he were chosen they would all say yes in a heartbeat.  Sure they may want to clarify things with Eliyahu, but that wouldn't hinder them.

Thus nobody truly believes that the Rebbe and only the Rebbe can be moshiach.  And refusing to daven in such a person's shul or eating their food just because of that belief is more foolish IMHO than believing that a holy and learned person to be a strong candidate of being moshiach.  There is nothing halachikly wrong with that belief.
you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw ;)
sure don't.   enjoy it.    ;)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #617 on: January 16, 2013, 02:02:30 PM »
You don't need to take my claims, I couldn't care less.  There are over 3,000 chabad houses and 95% of them are not meshichist. Over 99% of chabad houses in the USA are not run by meshichists.  Go across the country and verify that for yourself.

Among the communities that I'm intimately familiar with: There are dozens lubabs in Cleveland and I can attest that I don't know of a single meshichist.  In Pittsburgh there are hundreds of lubabs and there are maybe a couple of meshichists and they don't daven at the only chabad house.

It's no shock that the noisy ones in 770s basement and places like Venice and Tzfas stand out though, after all what would make a regular quiet person be noticed?

To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha. I'd argue that davening without a minyan in that situation as you say you would is definitely against halacha.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:23:41 PM by Dan »
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Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #618 on: January 16, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »
When y'all finish arguing, I hope the one in Cambridge is still ok. Because I eat there most shabbosos.

Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #619 on: January 16, 2013, 02:07:41 PM »
To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha.
like i said, i have no problem davening with or eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe could be moshiach.   

i do have a problem of davening with and eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe is moshiach.  there is no legitimate halachic basis for that belief.   

seems we're going in circles though.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #620 on: January 16, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #621 on: January 16, 2013, 02:12:00 PM »
And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?
btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #622 on: January 16, 2013, 02:12:18 PM »
but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.
Ok, it looks like we're making some progress here, at least I'm not an outright kofer anymore...

Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #623 on: January 16, 2013, 02:13:28 PM »
You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

They may not say it publicly, but I hate to break it to you guys...you are dead wrong.  And here is confirmation from someone whom I had the pleasure of meeting and can confirm is most definitely a chosid and not of the lubavitch persuasion.

This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #624 on: January 16, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »
@Lamdan
Gotta chill w/ your language. It clouds the  points you're trying to make.
And it makes objective readers think lower of the arguments you're presenting.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #625 on: January 16, 2013, 02:13:46 PM »
btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?
lol, sorry just Google it. At least I know you really don't know much on this topic or of its history. Don't mean that as an insult just good to know.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #626 on: January 16, 2013, 02:16:32 PM »
you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.


Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach and kefira. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:20:01 PM by Lamdan »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #627 on: January 16, 2013, 02:18:40 PM »
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73
And from earlier in this thread for the lazy.  I think you'll find this worthwhile reading:

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.gif image hosting
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:27:58 PM by Dan »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #628 on: January 16, 2013, 02:19:36 PM »
Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?
If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #629 on: January 16, 2013, 02:20:56 PM »
If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?
you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.
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