Messianism among Lubavitch

[jj1000]

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.

And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?

[churnbabychurn]

And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?

btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?

[whYME]

but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.

Ok, it looks like we're making some progress here, at least I'm not an outright kofer anymore...

Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?

[Dan]

You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

They may not say it publicly, but I hate to break it to you guys...you are dead wrong.  And here is confirmation from someone whom I had the pleasure of meeting and can confirm is most definitely a chosid and not of the lubavitch persuasion.

This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.

[Drago]

@Lamdan
Gotta chill w/ your language. It clouds the  points you're trying to make.
And it makes objective readers think lower of the arguments you're presenting.

[jj1000]

btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?

lol, sorry just Google it. At least I know you really don't know much on this topic or of its history. Don't mean that as an insult just good to know.

[Lamdan]

you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.

Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach and kefira. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?

[Dan]

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

And from earlier in this thread for the lazy.  I think you'll find this worthwhile reading:

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.gif image hosting

[Dan]

Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?

If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?

[Lamdan]

If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?

you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.

[Dan]

you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.

You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.

[jj1000]

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.

[Dan]

Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?

+1.
And if you do then you'll need to stop eating/davening with many chasidim.  Even if they don't publicize it like the chabad meshichistim do.

[Lamdan]

You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.

sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.

[Dan]

@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.

In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.

[Dan]

sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.

How so?
We've got Satmar and Belz on record for having the same beliefs that their Rebbe and leader that they follow is moshiach.
The difference is in the publication.

[jj1000]

In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.

Well when someone makes claims in one case and says it with such strong language then it casts doubts on all else he says unless he admits to being "delusional" in that case. Especially when he'd of known the facts had he actually read this thread.

[Dan]

Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

And 3 more places from earlier this thread.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.gif image hosting

I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 


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[jj1000]

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.

@Lamdan and others- People didn't make a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Everyone did believe he was moshiach. But there is no such thing as moshiach vaday until the beis hamikdash is rebuilt. Just like you say most people don't think about who moshiach is, chabad people before gimmel tamuz didn't think about making a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Now that it's a bigger issue and being dissected, it comes out that what everyone besides the tzfatim really believed was he was/is for sure a chezkas moshiach.

This is all tied into what WhyMe pointed out I believe

Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?

I'm sure you'll claim I'm backtracking and changing the past, and that you know cuz you spoke to people then.

But if you want an answer and I have spoken to people who were there before gimmel tamuz then this will be a satisfying explanation. If you don't want an answer/explanation, then feel free to ignore this post.

ETA- I'd equate before gimmel tammuz beliefs to similar ones of Rabbi Akiva about Bar Kochba. (Who yes was murdered insert diyuk in rambam here;) )

[churnbabychurn]

Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?