Messianism among Lubavitch

[doublejay]

Ok here goes nothing:

I don't know much about the topics discussed in this thread but I have always had some opinions on the topic. I feel a bit more informed now that I have read through (most of) this thread.

I like Dan and everyone else here too much.  Why am I getting involved?!

I agree that this thread is a bit dangerous as it risks some of the friendships on this board. I like all of you guys.

I don't agree with the following:

Why do I think Moshe Rabeinu, The Ba'al HaTanya, The GR"A or any other Gadol any of us hold dear wouldn't approve of this thread?

Keeping the internet part out of it, I think this discussion is kosher. We are supposed to find truth. I don't believe in respecting and "live and let live" in the extreme sense that people take it to these days. Denouncing what may be misleading/wrong is healthy - obviously in a non-violent and appropriate way.

...back to the topic:

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.

I believe that in many ways, this is the crux of my issue with Chabad (and many other groups and individuals in Judaism). If I have learned one thing in life it is that people who try to figure things out based on their own "research" are on the proverbial "slippery slope". Succesful people in life (not just religion) all have their mentor/guru/rabbi etc..

We simply cannot trust ourselves entirely.

When a group sees no problem with relying on the text and not the non-tangible wisdom of leaders they are already somewhat astray IMO.

As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".

This point I don't recall seeing responded to in any real way. Cornering yourself into an exclusive club is also a dangerous thing IMO.

Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin).

Elit, is on target with his points. Again, similar issue. Chabad seems to be ignoring the concept of Rov and instead is trying to bring texts.


Please, I would love a response to these questions/points. But please don't answer with a diversion or another question. Answer these things head on:

1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.

p.s. This thread is mucho-on-fire. 31 replies while I was typing this post 

[Dan]

I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?

+1,000
Frankly I DONT CARE who moshiach is and neither to most lubabs.
Nor do I care that some lubabs think that he is moshiach.
This is not a halachic question, GET OVER IT and live your life as a good loving jew.

[Side incomer]

no they don't. who the ___ (to quote you) are you to guess who mashiach is?

Let me revise:

Everybody has their right to guess who the manhig hador is.
And according to chaiddeshe sforim, he is going to be mashiach...

I'm not at all about doing any PR of mashiach because of this, but I don't see why you people care.

PS. I ain't a chabdnik

[Drago]

Did R. Soleveitchik really sign that?
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/ras.html

"I don't believe it. I don't believe it. It is incredible," Rabbi Soloveichik exclaimed when informed of the words of Rabbi Butman and others in Crown Heights about the imminent return of the Rebbe as Moshiach. The world-renowned rabbi said flatly that "there is no possibility whatsoever" that Menachem Mendel Schneerson would emerge from the dead to be the Messiah. "That could be possible in the Christian faith, but not Judaism."

[Drago]

what the hell do you care?

B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.

[Dan]

B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.

Stop mischaracterizing what this is.

All of those movements have sought to abolish torah u'mitzvos and that was their problem.
Chabad keeps very high standards (C"Y, non-gebroktz, P"Y, B"Y, 6 full hours, not using an eruv, not trimming the beard, full 49 days of sefira restrictions, not even drinking outside a sukkah, etc, etc) and would never dare abolish anything.

This is not 1 loony source in halacha.  There are dozens of sources in Halacha and there IS NO so-called long accepted P'sak that moshiach must be from the living.

[Side incomer]

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?

B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.

1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

[Dan]

1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.

This has all been covered ad nasueum, read the thread. But in short.
1. There is noone capable or willing too take over.
2. Is pure BS drivel. Go study in a chabad yeshiva for a week.
3. Read the thread, I'm not tacking this BS another time.

[Drago]

He never said he was moshiach.  If anything he said that the previous rebbe, his rebbe, was moshiach.

From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)

"Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo brought up the issue in 1984 by publishing a booklet declaring Schneerson to be the Messiah.[25] Schneerson responded by writing "It has come to pass that because of his [Wolpo's] activities ... hundreds of Jews have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality. It appeared to some that the Rebbe finally approved of the declaration of the Rebbe as Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated Yechi also on the hebrew date of the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."[26]

In fact, however, several months later on the 4th Cheshvan 5752, at a farbrengen (Chassidic gathering) on Shabbat Parshat No'ach, the Rebbe publicly admonished those who were singing that song. He threatened to leave the farbrengen, and only stayed so that it would not dissipate (source cited below in note 67)."

@chabad
Another question. When I see ppl wearing the yechi adonaini kippas, does that mean that they from from a more meshicist background, or do the regular lubavitchers wear them also?

[Dan]

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

The first heartwaming thing from this entire thread.
Seeing our sects get along

This is what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread.  The litvaks pretend this their only beef is against chabad, but it's still the same old tired fights that misnagdim have had on the Rebbe-Chosid relationship since the BS"T.
The extremists in Chabad are just more vocal because they believe that being vocal about it will hasten moshiach's coming.

[Dan]

From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)

"Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo brought up the issue in 1984 by publishing a booklet declaring Schneerson to be the Messiah.[25] Schneerson responded by writing "It has come to pass that because of his [Wolpo's] activities ... hundreds of Jews have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality. It appeared to some that the Rebbe finally approved of the declaration of the Rebbe as Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated Yechi also on the hebrew date of the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."[26]

In fact, however, several months later on the 4th Cheshvan 5752, at a farbrengen (Chassidic gathering) on Shabbat Parshat No'ach, the Rebbe publicly admonished those who were singing that song. He threatened to leave the farbrengen, and only stayed so that it would not dissipate (source cited below in note 67)."

@chabad
Another question. When I see ppl wearing the yechi adonaini kippas, does that mean that they from from a more meshicist background, or do the regular lubavitchers wear them also?

Thanks for the history lesson.

Only meshichists wear them.  They believe that it will hasten the coming of moshiach.

[doublejay]

This has all been covered ad nasueum, read the thread. But in short.
1. There is noone capable or willing too take over.
2. Is pure BS drivel. Go study in a chabad yeshiva for a week.
3. Read the thread, I'm not tacking this BS another time.

1) My issue isn't "I know who should be your rabbi and you aren't appointing him". It is:

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.

2) In the chabad yeshiva - do the current gedolei hador come and secretly visit? B/c if not you haven't answered the question of why don't they go shake their hands the way the rest of klal yisroel does.

3) Again, should just make you a bit uncomfortable when paired together with the fact that there is no current Rav that you are relying on anything but very accepted stuff.  The idea that mashiach can be a figure from Jewish History is certainly not mainstream.

[Drago]

Stop mischaracterizing what this is.

I never compared it to any of the movements. I'm simply explaining why ppl would be concerned, b/c when these things become unchecked, they become uncontrollable.
Listen, Judaism has a gezairah for almost every little halachik detail in life. It shouldn't come as a surprise that s/t this unique would cause ppl to want to create boundaries to control it as well.

2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.

[jj1000]

1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.

You seem very earnest in your questions unlike many here. So although most were answered in this thread I will attempt to answer them somewhat here just for you.

 1. Chabad has their rabonim, others have their rabonim. Same way Chabad doesn't eat chalav stam ecen though many rabonim say it's ok.

2. Says who? That is a bad stereotype. Besides that there is so much to learn from within Chabad itself which could take a lifetime, why wouldn't the focus be from their own teachers? If you learn in one school why wouldn't you give that school your focus?

3. Mostly this thread was defending a concept as not being kfira, by asking this question you are agreeing that the ideology has a source in halacha, you just want to know why to choose that source. Like in number 1. Chabad has their rabbanim and they can choose where a halacha comes from. The idea of moshiach from the dead is not a daily topic of old, so like most modern halachas there isn't necessarily a handed down mesorah of who to follow, hence a Rav I believe has some room in this matter to find his own source. Do you have a mesorah fro  your zayde moshiach must come from the living. I'd be fascinated to see it.

[Lamdan]

all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.

[Side incomer]

all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

[Dan]

In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.

You met a wacko, unfortunately they make a lot of noise and there's not much anyone can do about them.
To be perfectly clear: Chabad HAS NO SUCH GOALS.
The only goals we have are the ones our Rabbeim and the BS"T gave us.  To make this world a dwelling for hashem by spreading chassidus and getting people to do more mitzvos and that is what will hasten moshiach's coming.

[Dan]

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.

[Lamdan]

It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.

I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.

[moish]

there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan

you are saying they are all meshichists?