Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146404 times)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #765 on: February 03, 2015, 09:49:28 AM »
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties...
Wow best summary I've seen yet. For the most part it describes the situation on the ground pretty accurately. I only have 2 comments for the whole long Drashah:

Quote
there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
While it's true they that, for the most part, they won't throw out a Shliach from before '94 who says Yechi, the reality is that these days it would be extremely difficult for a vocal Meshichist to find "official" Shlichus. The overwhelming majority of Head Shluchim are not Meshichist and would not hire someone who will say Yechi. Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of "unofficial" Shluchim are Meshichist (the remaining minority are mostly Shluchim who were brought down as official Shluchim, got into a disagreement with their head Shliach and got fired but didn't want to leave their posts).

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(BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it)
AFAIK there was only one time (12 Tamuz 5710, a few months after the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away) where The Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as "Der Rebbe Zohl Gezunt Zein". Though if you look at the Sichah of Rosh Chodesh Sivan 5710 you can see the background to that statement and there The Rebbe qualified it by explaining that he's talking about Ruchniyusdike health. In writing The Rebbe ALWAYS reffered to the Frierdker Rebbe with the title זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע.

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There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
I guess we can all be thankful you decided NOT to be Ma'arich ;D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 10:04:20 AM by Achas Veachas »
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #766 on: February 03, 2015, 10:29:41 AM »
The way this mashpia used it seems to be more in a sense of tzadikim bmisoson keruyim chaim taken a bit emotionally
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #767 on: February 03, 2015, 11:54:38 AM »
Maybe this will bring back cbc :D

Offline MosheD

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #768 on: February 03, 2015, 12:19:21 PM »
I've read this thread cover to cover and would like to thank all for thier patient explanations. (Iirc specifically Dan, JJ100, 1+1, cbs etc)
Also thanks to lybbtthl for his short drasha on the metzius, and to all those that showed us that a civil discussion on a controversial topic is not even a possibility on an online forum.

My one remaining kasha, which I ask with the utmost hesitatance, as I am afraid this will turn into another dogfight... Please either answer the question or add to discussion.
DO NOT THROW POO!!
PLEASE!!

Anyway, how can the rebbe still be considered Nossi Dorienu?
וכי תימא
that he lives on through his seforim and chassidim than the argument about the Baal HaTanya etc comes back. I learn Tanya every day - does that make the Baal HaTanya my rebbe?
I am 22 years old and unfortunately the rebbe zye was niftar when I was two - I don't see how anyone around age can consider the Rebbe THEIR leader - we have no physical memories of him.

ONCE AGAIN - KEEP IT POLITE

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #769 on: February 03, 2015, 12:30:08 PM »
I've read this thread cover to cover and would like to thank all for thier patient explanations. (Iirc specifically Dan, JJ100, 1+1, cbs etc)
Also thanks to lybbtthl for his short drasha on the metzius, and to all those that showed us that a civil discussion on a controversial topic is not even a possibility on an online forum.

My one remaining kasha, which I ask with the utmost hesitatance, as I am afraid this will turn into another dogfight... Please either answer the question or add to discussion.
DO NOT THROW POO!!
PLEASE!!

Anyway, how can the rebbe still be considered Nossi Dorienu?
וכי תימא
that he lives on through his seforim and chassidim than the argument about the Baal HaTanya etc comes back. I learn Tanya every day - does that make the Baal HaTanya my rebbe?
I am 22 years old and unfortunately the rebbe zye was niftar when I was two - I don't see how anyone around age can consider the Rebbe THEIR leader - we have no physical memories of him.

ONCE AGAIN - KEEP IT POLITE

It's interesting that you are asking this question now. This past Shabbos I was at the Ohel (10 Shvat is the Yahrtzeit of the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Day the Rebbe became Rebbe), and there were over 1000 others there. The overwhelming majority were Bochurim your age or younger who, while they have no personal memories either, are nevertheless influenced by his Seforim, letters, videos, and the memories of their elders. For them the Rebbe is definitely the Nossi.

You ask how can they say the Rebbe is the Nossi HADOR (of the whole generation)? That is a personal belief and one without any נפק"מ in Halachah (except for a Mekadesh Ishah Al Tnai :P). If someone wants to look to someone else as the Nosi Hador Gezunterheit....
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline MosheD

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #770 on: February 03, 2015, 01:18:06 PM »


overwhelming majority were Bochurim your age or younger who, while they have no personal memories either, are nevertheless influenced by his Seforim, letters, videos, and the memories of their elders. For them the Rebbe is definitely the Nossi.


In that case moshiach can be anyone.
I learn gemara and feel connected to rav or abayei...
I just feel like the word "doreinu" denotes a physical presence...
Also, besides for what the Rebbe said about the Fredieker, (and breslov) , is there a precedent for this idea that a leader would continue to lead after his death. I'm no expert but it seems to me that almost every sect of Judaism elects new leaders, otherwise we'd all still be following Moshe Rabbeinu
   

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #771 on: February 03, 2015, 01:28:20 PM »

In that case moshiach can be anyone.
I learn gemara and feel connected to rav or abayei...
   
While I learn Gemara too I wouldn't say that my whole worldview has been affected and is built by the teachings of Abayei and Rava...

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Also, besides for what the Rebbe said about the Fredieker, (and breslov) , is there a precedent for this idea that a leader would continue to lead after his death.
I remember this Yerushalmi about Shimshon (Sotah 1:8 ) being quoted in this context, I don't remember if it was brought by the Rebbe or not...

כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל מ' שנה. וכתוב א' אומר (שם) והוא שפט את ישראל כ' שנה. אמר ר' אחא מלמד שהיו הפלשתים יראים ממנו כ' שנה לאחר מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו כ' שנה בחייו:

Even though the Yerushalmi is talking about his effect on the Plishtim, the Possuk quoted says וישפוט את ישראל...


ETA: The Rebbe brough it in the Farbrengen of 12 Tammuz 5711 (Toras Menachem 3 page 186):
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וצריכים לידע שהנהגה זו הולכת ונמשכת גם עתה – שזהו המוסר-השכל בנוגע אלינו:

ובהקדם המדובר כבר אודות ששואלים קושיות בנוגע לענין ההסתלקות כו' – שמצינו בירושלמי (והובא גם בילקוט שמעוני) בנוגע לשמשון, ש"כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל ארבעים שנה, וכתוב אחד אומר והוא שפט את ישראל עשרים שנה . . מלמד שהיו . . יראים ממנו כ' שנה לאחרי מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו כ' שנה בחייו", כלומר, כיון שגם לאחר מותו נמשכה הנהגתו וממשלתו, שהיו יראים ממנו, במשך עוד עשרים שנה, ה"ז חשיב כמו ששפט את ישראל ארבעים שנה.

ואם הדברים אמורים בנוגע לשופט בישראל – עאכו"כ בנוגע לרבי, שכל ענינו של רבי הוא יחידה שבנפש (אלא, שהיחידה שבנפש ממשיך הוא בכל חלקי הנפש ובכל חלקי הגוף), ובנוגע לבחינת היחידה לא שייך כ"כ ענין ההסתלקות ("דאָרטן האָט דער ענין פון הסתלקות אַ סאַך אַ קלענערע שייכות"), ודאי הדבר בפשיטות גמורה שיכול להיות המשך הנהגתו גם לאחרי ההסתלקות כמו בחייו.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 01:38:38 PM by Achas Veachas »
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Offline shiframeir

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Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
« Reply #772 on: February 03, 2015, 01:34:35 PM »
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
SHKOYACH (and thanks to dan for moving this over)!

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #773 on: February 03, 2015, 07:10:12 PM »
The way this mashpia used it seems to be more in a sense of tzadikim bmisoson keruyim chaim taken a bit emotionally
that's my point, that everyone who would use Shlit"a has a different level of what they mean, to some it can mean more literal than others.

Take a look at what Rashi says in Daniel 12:12 http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1
To many, this is merely and helem v'hester since almost the entire chabad openly proclaimed Yechi to the Rebbe as early as 1991, the Rebbe would not lie, this can only be the fulfillment of the above Rashi. - This is just one possible opinion, as I said there are many different levels, there are also different levels from what a person actually believes and what he'll actually tell someone he believes...

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #774 on: February 03, 2015, 07:14:25 PM »


there are also different levels from what a person actually believes and what he'll actually tell someone he believes...

Now that is an interesting line...

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #775 on: February 03, 2015, 07:19:48 PM »
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #776 on: February 03, 2015, 07:22:59 PM »
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
exactly why i found it interesting. Especially to be totally honest i have heard non lubavitch people speculate that about many non-mashichists so it was interesting to hear that from a lubavitcher

Offline Sport

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #777 on: February 03, 2015, 07:23:04 PM »

It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
sometimes it's just not worth the hassle.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #778 on: February 03, 2015, 07:26:57 PM »
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
NOt too many Lubavitchers will lie about what they believe though there are many who won't advertise everything they believe in (case in point, most Jews believe that if they were to find a genuine Ameleki this day they would be obligated to kill him but they won't go pronouncing this belief on the streets...)
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Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #779 on: February 03, 2015, 07:33:57 PM »
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.

does the same hold true when confronted by an atheist who challenges you to prove G-d exists? you believe it you just don't advertise it too much when around atheists

sometimes beliefs are ruchniyus based and can't be easily explained to people who aren't on the same page as you b'ruchniyus