Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 147083 times)

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #780 on: February 03, 2015, 07:35:55 PM »
Wow best summary I've seen yet. For the most part it describes the situation on the ground pretty accurately. I only have 2 comments for the whole long Drashah:
While it's true they that, for the most part, they won't throw out a Shliach from before '94 who says Yechi, the reality is that these days it would be extremely difficult for a vocal Meshichist to find "official" Shlichus. The overwhelming majority of Head Shluchim are not Meshichist and would not hire someone who will say Yechi. Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of "unofficial" Shluchim are Meshichist (the remaining minority are mostly Shluchim who were brought down as official Shluchim, got into a disagreement with their head Shliach and got fired but didn't want to leave their posts).
AFAIK there was only one time (12 Tamuz 5710, a few months after the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away) where The Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as "Der Rebbe Zohl Gezunt Zein". Though if you look at the Sichah of Rosh Chodesh Sivan 5710 you can see the background to that statement and there The Rebbe qualified it by explaining that he's talking about Ruchniyusdike health. In writing The Rebbe ALWAYS reffered to the Frierdker Rebbe with the title זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע.
I guess we can all be thankful you decided NOT to be Ma'arich ;D

let me try address a few of your points:

The reason why most Shluchim seem to be more "anti" inclined, is simply because it's a lot easier to take that approach when dealing with outsiders, it's hard to mix spiritual feelings into something physical and practical, you can't tell a non religious Jew that you met that The Rebbe is still alive, he'll look at you like nuts, he watched CNN in 1994 and saw the funeral! but the community of CH is probably more "mishechist" inclined, they lived with the Rebbe and saw him on a daily basis and we all heard the Rebbe say clearly that this is the last generation of Golus and the first generation of Geula. Being on Shlichus, not saying Yechi for the practical reasons will eventually rub off on your own belief and your kids as well, that likely why most shluchim are more 'anti' what else do you tell your balebatim when you host a farbrengen on gimel tamuz?

As far as the Rebbe saying Shlit"a on the Frierdiker Rebbe, there are a few times where the Rebbe said it clearly, Simchas Torah 5711 (Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710(or maybe 5711) page 52, Parshas Vayakhel and Purim 5711, Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5711 vol 1 page 274 and 327. and a few other places. Also in 5752 when the Rebbe had a yechidus with Mordechai Eliyahu, the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with Shlit"a, it wasn't just once. The time you mentioned is when a chosid wrote that in to the Rebbe and the Rebbe said "bemes neheneisi" Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710 page 83.
Another time the Rebbe dismissed people saying nishmaso beginzei meromim, explaining that who are we to tell the Frierdiker Rebbe where he is, why are we separating ourselves from him? he's right here with us! why do we try send him away? (page 106). I don't believe the Rebbe ALWAYS referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע, defintely many times but I wouldn't jump to write always in caps!

I got these page numbers from a compilation someone put together of all the sources for anything to do with Rebbe, Moshiach, Shlit"a etc. The book is only photocopies from seforim, there are no droshos explaining anything, it's just for the reader to see the sources and make his own decisions from there.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #781 on: February 03, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
NOt too many Lubavitchers will lie about what they believe though there are many who won't advertise everything they believe in
Which is why I laid out my beliefs earlier in this thread.

does the same hold true when confronted by an atheist who challenges you to prove G-d exists? you believe it you just don't advertise it too much when around atheists
I happen to know one and harass him every time about the lunacy of believing how the minutiae of this universe could have possibly come together by some freak accident.

If you can't explain and defend your beliefs than you ought to reexamine them.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #782 on: February 03, 2015, 07:51:38 PM »
that's my point, that everyone who would use Shlit"a has a different level of what they mean, to some it can mean more literal than others.

Take a look at what Rashi says in Daniel 12:12 http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1since almost the entire chabad openly proclaimed Yechi to the Rebbe as early as 1991
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people say the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

And what do you do with the stories of the Rebbe getting angry with those who dropped yechi pamphlets, etc?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 07:58:17 PM by Dan »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #783 on: February 03, 2015, 07:53:34 PM »
you can't tell a non religious Jew that you met that The Rebbe is still alive, he'll look at you like nuts, he watched CNN in 1994 and saw the funeral!
You say that as if most lubavitchers today believe he's walking around somewhere.  He may live on spiritually, but more than that?
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #784 on: February 03, 2015, 07:56:24 PM »
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people said the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #785 on: February 03, 2015, 07:57:54 PM »
Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
Seems like that proves the opposite...
And proofs from after the stroke are hardly proofs at all.
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Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #786 on: February 03, 2015, 07:59:29 PM »
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people said the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

And what do you do with the stories of the Rebbe getting angry with those who dropped yechi pamphlets, etc?

yes, the first time on video was 15 iyar 5751, almost a year before the stroke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0EHmT4rPAg

Interestingly, someone pointed out to me a pattern, whenever someone informed the Rebbe about such a peula, the Rebbe responded with words of encouragement and satisfaction and gave his brochos for continuation, yeilchu michayil el choyil etc. however if someone asked in advance, the Rebbe usually discouraged it, there are also times when people wrote in panim and letters adressing the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, to which the Rebbe responded I'll give it to him when he's nisgaleh, buth there are stories as early as 1964 when a certain chosid sent in a Pan addressed Pan Lcha"k Admu"r Melech Hamoshiach Shlit"A and the Rebbe accepted it. I guess the Rebbe knew their intentions...

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #787 on: February 03, 2015, 07:59:59 PM »
Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
when are you referring to? In the above video I posted you can clearly see the Rebbe encouraging it

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #788 on: February 03, 2015, 08:01:47 PM »
when are you referring to?
The same 15 Iyar '51 you referred to in your last post...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 08:06:43 PM by Achas Veachas »
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Offline Dr Moose

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #789 on: February 03, 2015, 09:21:55 PM »
what's the whole thing about saying Yechi?
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Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #790 on: February 03, 2015, 09:49:41 PM »
what's the whole thing about saying Yechi?
Why dont you read the thread a little because it's discussed through out...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #791 on: February 03, 2015, 09:52:42 PM »

If you can't explain and defend your beliefs than you ought to reexamine them.

I don't completely disagree with you at all, but by definition true 'belief' is a suspension of reality and instead is a leap of faith. Now we often use belief when we really mean opinion based on a compilation of facts which is what I think you mean.

Offline Dr Moose

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #792 on: February 03, 2015, 10:13:47 PM »
Why dont you read the thread a little because it's discussed through out...
there's no point in reading through a thread that's in JS.

I'm just asking for a quick answer, I saw that it was mentioned that some people say Yechi and others don't. I want to know what it symbolizes.
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Offline DP7

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Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #793 on: February 03, 2015, 10:15:18 PM »
Now we often use belief when we really mean opinion based on a compilation of facts which is what I think you mean.

If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 10:25:27 PM by DP7 »

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #794 on: February 03, 2015, 10:35:35 PM »
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
Just look at the "Facts" section of the wiki on the vaccine thread... :P
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