Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 205366 times)

Offline Emkay

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #800 on: February 04, 2015, 04:04:40 AM »



It's civil to try to protect people from false ideologies. I won't post in this thread anymore.
What happened? Couldn't hold out?
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #801 on: February 04, 2015, 04:54:50 AM »
I'm not familiar w/ crown heights politics, but this guy seems to do a good job calling out the crazies who try to stir up problems.

https://whoisshmira.wordpress.com/

Offline DP7

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #802 on: February 04, 2015, 05:41:27 AM »


What happened? Couldn't hold out?

No I couldn't. But I am just asking in general. If X is. Fact how can there be different opinions as to the truth of X?

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #803 on: February 04, 2015, 07:59:21 AM »
2 questions (that are more sociological i guess than theological): is chazal, haskafa etc?.. On the topic of moshiach av actual like subject taught in chabad schools or all of you know a lot about it because you have just hard it so many times etc... Also as time passes,do the younger generations tend to be less moshiachists,the same or more?

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #804 on: February 04, 2015, 08:08:49 AM »
Also as time passes,do the younger generations tend to be less moshiachists,the same or more?
It's only been 20 years. There haven't been too many generations since then.

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #805 on: February 04, 2015, 08:09:39 AM »
It's only been 20 years. There haven't been too many generations since then.
Ok generations was the wrong word...

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #806 on: February 04, 2015, 08:14:45 AM »
Ok generations was the wrong word...
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's increased, at least in Israel.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #807 on: February 04, 2015, 08:18:41 AM »
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's increased, at least in Israel.
I'd say it increased at the extremes while the center is drifting towards the 'anti' side.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #808 on: February 04, 2015, 08:27:32 AM »
I'd say it increased at the extremes while the center is drifting towards the 'anti' side.
When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?

Offline Emkay

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #809 on: February 04, 2015, 08:30:50 AM »
When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?
He explains the 2
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #810 on: February 04, 2015, 08:47:44 AM »
He explains the 2
Thx, hadn't read that.
I'd think that those insisting he's dead wouldn't be considered 'extreme', but I guess in relation to those who are more ambivalant, the term might fit.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #811 on: February 04, 2015, 08:53:47 AM »
Really depends where.
For whatever reason Israel produces nearly all of the real extremists these days.

Ask 100 folks in a OOT anash community today  (come try it in CLE/DTW/PIT when you're here next) )if the rebbe is physically alive and I'd be surprised if you got 1 affirmative response.

That he can be mochiach most would agree, but that he has to be moshiach would be few and far between. At least OOT.

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #812 on: February 04, 2015, 09:05:09 AM »
In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
You think that's b/c ppl who believe it would be uncomfortable living outside of Israel/CH, and therefore they congregate together?
Or is it that 'out of towners' are more exposed to other streams of frumkeit and have problems wrapping their mind around it?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #813 on: February 04, 2015, 09:07:24 AM »
Really depends where.
For whatever reason Israel produces nearly all of the real extremists these days.

Ask 100 folks in a OOT anash community today  (come try it in CLE/DTW/PIT when you're here next) )if the rebbe is physically alive and I'd be surprised if you got 1 affirmative response.

That he can be mochiach most would agree, but that he has to be moshiach would be few and far between. At least OOT.

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Are you backing away from this statement?
How egotistical one must be, to presume they know the thoughts of an entire sect.
Newsflash: Nobody thinks that only he can be moshiach or that he must be moshiach to the exclusion of anyone else.  100% of lubavitchers would accept anyone revealed to be moshiach as I've said many times.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #814 on: February 04, 2015, 09:23:26 AM »
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
You are correct, unfortunately you just have the wrong facts. As can be seen when reading through this thread.

If you don't bring sources and you have no interest in having an open conversation than why bother posting here? Do you think it'll help your cause? Sounding arrogant and putting others down only hurts what you want to accomplish.

Seriously you can't respect someone ones opinion that differs from you?

Are you backing away from this statement?
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Offline DP7

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #815 on: February 04, 2015, 09:25:02 AM »

You are correct, unfortunately you just have the wrong facts. As can be seen when reading through this thread.

Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #816 on: February 04, 2015, 09:26:48 AM »

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Israel is seriously polarizing on the extremes and they just get more extreme with time. On the one hand you have Elokistn and the Guf Gashmi folks and on the other hand you have those calling for a Dor Hashmini already...

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #817 on: February 04, 2015, 09:27:16 AM »
Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.
You are trying to be witty and it's cute. But see my post edit. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish posting here.

If you don't bring sources and you have no interest in having an open conversation than why bother posting here? Do you think it'll help your cause? Sounding arrogant and putting others down only hurts what you want to accomplish.

Seriously you can't respect someone ones opinion that differs from you?

I thought this thread was locked for good reason.
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Offline DP7

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #818 on: February 04, 2015, 09:30:37 AM »

You are trying to be witty and it's cute. But see my post edit. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish posting here.

I thought this thread was locked for good reason.

I don't have a cause. I was commenting on someone's use of the terms facts and opinions interchangeably regardless of my thoughts on this individual topic.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #819 on: February 04, 2015, 09:33:07 AM »
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
If you have facts please provide verification.
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