Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 206231 times)

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #860 on: February 04, 2015, 04:07:26 PM »
I'm not familiar w/ crown heights politics
Clearly :)

but this guy seems to do a good job calling out...
Yeah, in the same vain as FM does a good job of calling out whoever...

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #861 on: February 04, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
You must have experience with different Israelis in 770 than I do.
Apparently.

You can't judge them all by the few that make the most noise :)

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #862 on: February 04, 2015, 04:15:53 PM »
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #863 on: February 04, 2015, 04:22:27 PM »
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work
That practice hardly started with the rebbe.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline doodle

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #864 on: February 04, 2015, 04:25:13 PM »
THANK YOU for reopening this thread , I learned many new things !
and its all credit to OUR VERY OWN , , CHAIM MOSKOWITZ for putting it on his popcorn thread .
a public TRIBUTE to C.M.!!
Salt Is Good

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #865 on: February 04, 2015, 04:29:24 PM »
THANK YOU for reopening this thread , I learned many new things !
and its all credit to OUR VERY OWN , , CHAIM MOSKOWITZ for putting it on his popcorn thread .
a public TRIBUTE to C.M.!!
Please leave me out of this one. Extremely hard for me to understand any of this.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #866 on: February 04, 2015, 04:30:01 PM »
That practice hardly started with the rebbe.
what did that answer? :)

Offline doodle

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #867 on: February 04, 2015, 04:33:23 PM »
AND credit for EVERYONE for keeping this important topic , peaceful and respectful , there is so much to be learned from this excellent thread. i would move it to the GENERAL ISSUES section. KUDOS TO ALL
Salt Is Good

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #868 on: February 04, 2015, 04:40:23 PM »
...i would move it to the GENERAL ISSUES section. KUDOS TO ALL
Some people would gain instant 10K status :P

Offline MeirS

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #869 on: February 04, 2015, 04:52:30 PM »
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work
The Rebbe mentioned a few times after the passing of the previous Rebbe, that chasidim should continue writing to the Rebbe, placing it at the ohel, and those who are far away should put it between the pages of the Rebbe's Chassidus and the Rebbe will find how to answer.

That seems to be the source of what some consider a letter on the page of the Rebbe's letters, that they randomly insert their letter to, as an answer to their question.

Although I don't think that is what the Rebbe meant and I wouldn't do this myself, nor would I suggest it to others, I may even discourage it, for those who believe in it, it definitely works.

For this to make sense I'll ask if anyone recalls the story with Reb Mendel Futerfas who sent a letter במחשה from Soviet jail and his wife in London received a letter in response. As well as the gentleman in France who asked the Rebbe (in the 30s) whether he should emigrate to America and the Rebbe told him to write to the previous Rebbe who was in Russia /long story short/ he brought it to the post office who said they couldn't do anything with the letter as there was no mail between the 2 countries and the next morning the guy woke up with a certainty that going to America was the right thing.

PS. There was a famous story about a family in Australia who has a life saving miracle (I think the bit was in hospital dying from cancer) by acting on advice they found in a letter from the Rebbe that they randomly opened to (PM me for the name).

PPS. Whether you would use an encouraging word in a letter as a blessing or if you would actually make decisions with consequences base on it, well, that's each to their own.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #870 on: February 04, 2015, 05:06:52 PM »
And there are even be DDFers who are alive today and who found their shidduchim due to answers found in igros...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #871 on: February 04, 2015, 05:10:30 PM »
And there are even be DDFers who are alive today and who found their shidduchim due to answers found in igros...
I believe that's more in line of what MeirS said about asking from a Brachah. Just like the many DDFers who went to the Ohel to get engaged...

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #872 on: February 04, 2015, 06:31:04 PM »
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work

The practice I believe dates back over 200 years ago, when chassidim were too far away from Lubavitch, they'd write their letter and insert it at random into the pages of the Rebbe's Torah.

Nowaday's the yellow flaggers try to push this practice on others, I don't believe that's necessary, but if someone was to ask me how one can obtain the Rebbe's advise or bracha, I would suggest this method, I have personal stories, and know hundreds of stories that happened to people I know. No one can deny it works and it's definitely miraculous, Igros Kodesh contains tens of thousands of letters the Rebbe wrote on all topics, do you think it's a coincidence that one who writes about a certain issue, randomly opened a random volume of Igros and the letter on that page discussed exactly what he was writing about? this exact scenario has played out 1000's of times

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #873 on: February 04, 2015, 06:34:46 PM »
It's also easier to flat out, blanketly, denounce a whole group of people whose ideology you disagree with than to recognize what they are doing right. :)

It just happens to be, that generally speaking, the "flaggers" are amongst the most dedicated to learning and mivtzoim and "the Rebbe's inyonim" in general. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the average "flagger" bochur you'll find that to be the case.

I have plenty of problems with them and what they do, but I can also recognize what they do right.

I happen to agree with what you say, people tend to write off the tzfatim very quickly, I'm definitely no fan of them, but they have a very sincere ibergegebenkeit to the Rebbe and his mivtzoim. They definitely cross lines from time to time, like when fighting with someone who stepped into their path they made for the Rebbe, if they believe the Rebbe is physically walking that path as we speak, would they dare raise their hand on a fellow Jew right in front of the Rebbe? any chossid became completely botul (if only for a few seconds) when directly in front of the Rebbe

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #874 on: February 04, 2015, 06:35:20 PM »

The practice I believe dates back over 200 years ago, when chassidim were too far away from Lubavitch, they'd write their letter and insert it at random into the pages of the Rebbe's Torah.

Nowaday's the yellow flaggers try to push this practice on others, I don't believe that's necessary, but if someone was to ask me how one can obtain the Rebbe's advise or bracha, I would suggest this method, I have personal stories, and know hundreds of stories that happened to people I know. No one can deny it works and it's definitely miraculous, Igros Kodesh contains tens of thousands of letters the Rebbe wrote on all topics, do you think it's a coincidence that one who writes about a certain issue, randomly opened a random volume of Igros and the letter on that page discussed exactly what he was writing about? this exact scenario has played out 1000's of times
the igros is one book?

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #875 on: February 04, 2015, 06:36:38 PM »
the igros is one book?
no, approx 30 volumes


Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #876 on: February 04, 2015, 06:37:14 PM »
So how does that work?

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #877 on: February 04, 2015, 06:41:26 PM »
To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.

Offline lybbtthl

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #878 on: February 04, 2015, 06:46:10 PM »
So how does that work?

When one wants to write a letter to the Rebbe, be it a bakasha for a bracha, a Pan (pidyan nefesh typically written on Erev R"H or your birthday) or a Duch (din vecheshbon, writing to the Rebbe about your achievements in a certain period or area) a chossid would prepare himself properly and take the moment very seriously. There are many preps that different people do, it's based your own hergeshim and discussions with your own mashpia. After writing the letter, randomly select a volume of Igros (or any other Sefer of the Rebbe's Torah, Igros has become the norm now since it is the most practical way to get a clear answer) and insert your letter into a random page. Afterwards, sit down and learn the letter and see what the Rebbe is discussing, and most of the time you should discuss the letter with your mashpia, you shouldn't rely on your own deductions.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #879 on: February 04, 2015, 06:48:51 PM »
besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.
As I mentioned upthread, I don't believe that group number 3 exists as a group within Chabad...