Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 456839 times)

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #900 on: February 04, 2015, 09:58:37 PM »

Duh

How do you randomly select one banana out of 30 bananas?
hey hey take it easy, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this idea

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #901 on: February 04, 2015, 10:28:15 PM »
Regarding if the Rebbe moshiach there is two points.  Number one according to halacha and number two What's explained ע"פ חסידות.  According to halacha the rambam sets a criteria who could be bchezkas moshiach and who his moshiach vaday. According to halacha the Rebbe could only be bchezkas moshiach and not moshiach vaday. But according to how it's explained in chassidus and the Rebbe's Torah what moshiach,  Geulah, nassi and Rebbe is all about, its very clear that the Rebbe is moshiach.
And therefore for some one that didn't learn in chassidus regarding these things, it will be very hard to understand how the Rebbe is  moshiach . (I have heard from many so called "anti's" that according halacha not for sure, but ע"פ חסידות for sure.)
Not sure what you're saying. That according to Chassidus the Rebbe has a Geder of Moshiach Vadai? That the Hergesh of a Chossid is that the Rebbe will definitely be Moshiach?

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #902 on: February 04, 2015, 10:31:06 PM »
As said and confirmed earlier, in most chassidus they believe their rebbe to be moshiach.
Nothing unique about Chabad here except the desire by some of spreading that.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #903 on: February 04, 2015, 10:32:04 PM »
Just for pure critical sake, (I'm sure your stories are amazing and show hashgacha pratis) but hee goofa!
This can probably be done with anything, as long as one has the right intentions and mindset. I vaguely recall stories of tzaddikim (not even sure if litvak or chassidish but I'm going to assume the latter) doing this with a tanach. It's all about the interpretation.
I guess we need a thread for pre and post gimmel tamuz miracle stories...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #904 on: February 04, 2015, 10:35:10 PM »
I guess we need a thread for pre and post gimmel tamuz miracle stories...
I give it a half a page before the popcorn is knee high... :P

Offline Freddie

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #905 on: February 04, 2015, 10:36:13 PM »
Like Achas said, אין מערבין פופקורן בפופקורן, nevertheless, I think it's interesting hashgacha pratis that right now there's a thread going on about who can you trust and how to have a rating system in place to vouch for reputation.

Hmmm.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #906 on: February 04, 2015, 10:37:17 PM »
Like Achas said, אין מערבין פופקורן בפופקורן, nevertheless, I think it's interesting hashgacha pratis that right now there's a thread going on about who can you trust and how to have a rating system in place to vouch for reputation.

Hmmm.
Precisely...

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #907 on: February 04, 2015, 10:43:58 PM »
Just like the many DDFers who went to the Ohel to get engaged...
IINM there's a DDFer there right now  ;D

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #908 on: February 04, 2015, 10:44:46 PM »

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #909 on: February 04, 2015, 11:30:11 PM »
I believe I posted up thread about igros and how Mordechai used bibliomancy in the Purim story.
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Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #910 on: February 04, 2015, 11:32:39 PM »
I guess we need a thread for pre and post gimmel tamuz miracle stories...
Can you Explain for us non lubavitchers

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #911 on: February 04, 2015, 11:36:58 PM »
Regarding if the Rebbe moshiach there is two points.  Number one according to halacha and number two What's explained ע"פ חסידות.  According to halacha the rambam sets a criteria who could be bchezkas moshiach and who his moshiach vaday. According to halacha the Rebbe could only be bchezkas moshiach and not moshiach vaday. But according to how it's explained in chassidus and the Rebbe's Torah what moshiach,  Geulah, nassi and Rebbe is all about, its very clear that the Rebbe is moshiach.
And therefore for some one that didn't learn in chassidus regarding these things, it will be very hard to understand how the Rebbe is  moshiach . (I have heard from many so called "anti's" that according halacha not for sure, but ע"פ חסידות for sure.)
According to the Rambam's criteria for chezkas moshiach, the Rebbe wasn't Bechezkas Moshiach either.
ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה'--הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח

Nor was anyone since Bar Kochva Bechezkas Moshiach
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:41:07 PM by Baruch »

Offline ganizzy

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #912 on: February 04, 2015, 11:46:24 PM »
Can you Explain for us non lubavitchers
Gimmel tammuz is the date the rebbe passed away

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #913 on: February 04, 2015, 11:47:35 PM »
Gimmel tammuz is the date the rebbe passed away
That much i know

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #914 on: February 05, 2015, 12:19:41 AM »
I guess we need a thread for pre and post gimmel tamuz miracle stories...
If you start talking about miracle stories give me a ring. I have a few I can post.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Freddie

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #915 on: February 05, 2015, 12:20:29 AM »
If you start talking about miracle stories give me a ring. I have a few I can post.

nu? go ahead.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #916 on: February 05, 2015, 01:00:05 AM »
According to the Rambam's criteria for chezkas moshiach, the Rebbe wasn't Bechezkas Moshiach either.
ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה'--הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח

Nor was anyone since Bar Kochva Bechezkas Moshiach
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
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Offline MeirS

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #917 on: February 05, 2015, 01:38:26 AM »
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
The only part that I see an argument about is the מלך part. All the rest is clear facts.

Now if yeshivish people would farbreng, at this point they would their the salad at me

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #918 on: February 05, 2015, 01:47:01 AM »
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
Disagree strongly.
But am totally not interested in getting into this argument.

If you learn this Rambam like you learn all Rambams, you would never say that the Rebbe fits the description.
If you hold the Rebbe is Moshiach and want the Rambam to shtim with that belief, you can drey the Rambam like a pretzel and have it shtim.

I wish there would be intellectual honesty on both sides of this argument.

I believe that after learning the Rambam in depth without preconceptions - there are 2 conclusions:

1. It is very mashma that Moshiach can come from the dead, as long as he wasn't killed. (I might be the only Litvak alive who will concede that point  ;))

2. Nobody since Bar Kochva came even close to being Bechezkas Moshiach. Probably nobody even fulfilled 1 of the tnaim!

(If your me'aiyn in the Rambam, you'll realize that the mekor for e/t he's saying was the story of Bar Kochva. So when you try to figure out what each tnay means exactly - think Bar Kochva)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:54:28 AM by Baruch »

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #919 on: February 05, 2015, 01:48:28 AM »
The only part that I see an argument about is the מלך part. All the rest is clear facts.

Now if yeshivish people would farbreng, at this point they would their the salad at me
salad? I'd throw the whole table at you!  ;)