Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146213 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #915 on: February 05, 2015, 12:20:29 AM »
If you start talking about miracle stories give me a ring. I have a few I can post.

nu? go ahead.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #916 on: February 05, 2015, 01:00:05 AM »
According to the Rambam's criteria for chezkas moshiach, the Rebbe wasn't Bechezkas Moshiach either.
ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה'--הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח

Nor was anyone since Bar Kochva Bechezkas Moshiach
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
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Offline MeirS

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #917 on: February 05, 2015, 01:38:26 AM »
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
The only part that I see an argument about is the מלך part. All the rest is clear facts.

Now if yeshivish people would farbreng, at this point they would their the salad at me

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #918 on: February 05, 2015, 01:47:01 AM »
All of those things can be argued to fit the Rebbe.
Disagree strongly.
But am totally not interested in getting into this argument.

If you learn this Rambam like you learn all Rambams, you would never say that the Rebbe fits the description.
If you hold the Rebbe is Moshiach and want the Rambam to shtim with that belief, you can drey the Rambam like a pretzel and have it shtim.

I wish there would be intellectual honesty on both sides of this argument.

I believe that after learning the Rambam in depth without preconceptions - there are 2 conclusions:

1. It is very mashma that Moshiach can come from the dead, as long as he wasn't killed. (I might be the only Litvak alive who will concede that point  ;))

2. Nobody since Bar Kochva came even close to being Bechezkas Moshiach. Probably nobody even fulfilled 1 of the tnaim!

(If your me'aiyn in the Rambam, you'll realize that the mekor for e/t he's saying was the story of Bar Kochva. So when you try to figure out what each tnay means exactly - think Bar Kochva)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:54:28 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #919 on: February 05, 2015, 01:48:28 AM »
The only part that I see an argument about is the מלך part. All the rest is clear facts.

Now if yeshivish people would farbreng, at this point they would their the salad at me
salad? I'd throw the whole table at you!  ;)
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #920 on: February 05, 2015, 07:40:28 AM »
Disagree strongly.
But am totally not interested in getting into this argument.

If you learn this Rambam like you learn all Rambams, you would never say that the Rebbe fits the description.
If you hold the Rebbe is Moshiach and want the Rambam to shtim with that belief, you can drey the Rambam like a pretzel and have it shtim.

I wish there would be intellectual honesty on both sides of this argument.

I believe that after learning the Rambam in depth without preconceptions - there are 2 conclusions:

1. It is very mashma that Moshiach can come from the dead, as long as he wasn't killed. (I might be the only Litvak alive who will concede that point  ;))

2. Nobody since Bar Kochva came even close to being Bechezkas Moshiach. Probably nobody even fulfilled 1 of the tnaim!

(If your me'aiyn in the Rambam, you'll realize that the mekor for e/t he's saying was the story of Bar Kochva. So when you try to figure out what each tnay means exactly - think Bar Kochva)
I don't see how you can be so amendment that the Rambam CAN'T be talking about the Rebbe (not even 1 of the Tna'im? for real? There are at least 2 that are beyond debate: ואם יעמוד... מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה...).

I have a letter from my great-great-grandfather (A Chossid of the Rebbe Rasha"b, a very respected Rov, served at one point as the Rebbe Rashab's personal Rov), way before anyone accused Chabad of being overly messianic. He was writing to a friend of his, the Rov in Chernigov, both are people you wouldn't accuse of excess Chassidishe zeal and narrow-mindedness. In the letter he describes in great excitement a "discovery" he made that the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim matches the Rebbe Rashab perfectly.

If people said about the Rebbe Rashab that he fulfilled ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה' how much more so for the Rebbe with his network of Shluchim and Chabad houses and numerous campaigns he led can fit the bill.

I understand that someone can think otherwise, but to accuse someone who understands it that way with intellectual dishonesty? ???
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #921 on: February 05, 2015, 08:51:30 AM »
@Baruch First of all this
I don't see how you can be so amendment that the Rambam CAN'T be talking about the Rebbe (not even 1 of the Tna'im? for real? There are at least 2 that are beyond debate: ואם יעמוד... מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה...).

I have a letter from my great-great-grandfather (A Chossid of the Rebbe Rasha"b, a very respected Rov, served at one point as the Rebbe Rashab's personal Rov), way before anyone accused Chabad of being overly messianic. He was writing to a friend of his, the Rov in Chernigov, both are people you wouldn't accuse of excess Chassidishe zeal and narrow-mindedness. In the letter he describes in great excitement a "discovery" he made that the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim matches the Rebbe Rashab perfectly.

If people said about the Rebbe Rashab that he fulfilled ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה' how much more so for the Rebbe with his network of Shluchim and Chabad houses and numerous campaigns he led can fit the bill.

I understand that someone can think otherwise, but to accuse someone who understands it that way with intellectual dishonesty? ???
Second of all to me the whole point of this thread was to show that people who believe the Rebbe can be moshiach or is even bi'chezkas moshiach are not kofrim and have sources in Jewish tradition. So if it can fit than that's good enough for the purposes of this thread imho.

Third as for the last points. Bar kochba had much opposition within the Jewish world, so the Rambam clearly doesn't mean כל ישראל literally. And as for the Rebbe was there ever a leader in history that dedicated more of his life to bringing Jews to be more observant worldwide than the Rebbe?

And as for war it also means it figuratively as explained in Torah Shelemah on vayikra 21:14, par. 84. Aside from the fact that most prime ministers consulted the rebbe about war strategy and he worked for the Navy ;).

Anyway it's not an argument, just trying to show possible explanations if you want them.
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Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #922 on: February 05, 2015, 09:00:51 AM »
What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?

Offline moish

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #923 on: February 05, 2015, 09:11:04 AM »
And as for war it also means it figuratively as explained in Torah Shelemah on vayikra 21:14, par. 84.
but didnt he himself write that the Rambamís language means literal wars including the destruction of Amalek?

Offline Joe4007

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #924 on: February 05, 2015, 09:24:53 AM »


As said and confirmed earlier, in most chassidus they believe their rebbe to be moshiach.
That's news to me.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #925 on: February 05, 2015, 09:26:41 AM »
What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?
Exactly. As has been said many times it doesn't affect the chabad teachings or how one lives their life one iota. It seems the litvish world made this topic to be a central belief of chabad while chabad themselves don't.

but didnt he himself write that the Rambamís language means literal wars including the destruction of Amalek?
I don't recall hearing it describing the destruction of Amalek besides for maybe talking about mashiach vaday.

That's news to me.
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Offline moish

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #926 on: February 05, 2015, 09:35:47 AM »
I don't recall hearing it describing the destruction of Amalek besides for maybe talking about mashiach vaday.
i dont think so

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #927 on: February 05, 2015, 09:36:24 AM »
That's news to me.

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach

I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #928 on: February 05, 2015, 09:51:32 AM »
What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?
Ding Ding Ding Ding!

Now the thread can be closed again for another half a year :)
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #929 on: February 05, 2015, 09:58:27 AM »
Ding Ding Ding Ding!

Now the thread can be closed again for another half a year ever :)
+1
i dont think so
Again look at Bar Kochba he had cheskas moshiach and did not did not destroy amalek, so it would seem that is not a requirement.
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