Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 241517 times)

Offline thaber

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1200 on: July 25, 2017, 03:41:40 PM »
I dare say that you are no true Scotsman. 
if it makes you happy. I don't think "no true scotsman" is an adjective, but if it is, guilty as charged

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1201 on: July 25, 2017, 03:46:17 PM »
My understanding is that much revolves around the question of what exactly was wrong with Sabbateanism. Was it simply that they were wrong (how do we know that?) or is it much deeper than that?

Please do as you suggest, and elaborate and explain (at least about how you see or understand it).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1202 on: July 25, 2017, 03:51:25 PM »
Please do as you suggest, and elaborate and explain (at least about how you see or understand it).
Why did you leave out the first half?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1203 on: July 25, 2017, 03:52:48 PM »
Hey, I'm a through and through litvack and have two volumes of Likutei Sichos on my desk, don't accuse me of being unobjective or not having an open mind. :) (and yes I spent several hours with them this week).
Did I accuse you of being unobjective or not having an open mind?

I'm sorry for the lack of context, Google was giving me a hard time. I know the context and was just referencing what had thrown CBC for a loop
You could have easily done תשובה by posting the appropriate link: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11489.msg1716547#msg1716547 wouldn't have been to hard to get the link using Google or forum search.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1204 on: July 25, 2017, 03:54:15 PM »
Why did you leave out the first half?
Mostly because I don't have much to comment about it. I mostly agree with what you wrote in the first half, and based on that, am eager to find out and understand your (and other's) perspective on the latter.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1205 on: July 25, 2017, 03:59:42 PM »
Mostly because I don't have much to comment about it. I mostly agree with what you wrote in the first half, and based on that, am eager to find out and understand your (and other's) perspective on the latter.
I meant this
Now that more people joined in it is time for me to leave.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1206 on: July 25, 2017, 04:01:35 PM »
Those who start arguing about whether Moshiach can or can't be someone who is no longer living from either perspective is missing the boat. It is not that clear cut of a question.
IMO opinions about "whether Moshiach can or can't be someone who is no longer living" is a non-issue. Once someone says that believing that he could be is avoda zara rather than acknowledging that there is who to rely on for that opinion, that's when the problems start.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1207 on: July 25, 2017, 04:03:21 PM »
Hey, I'm a through and through litvack and have two volumes of Likutei Sichos on my desk, don't accuse me of being unobjective or not having an open mind. :) (and yes I spent several hours with them this week).


You need to answer for the pri tzadik also...:P

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1208 on: July 25, 2017, 04:04:05 PM »
IMO opinions about "whether Moshiach can or can't be someone who is no longer living" is a non-issue. Once someone says that believing that he could be is avoda zara rather than acknowledging that there is who to rely on for that opinion, that's when the problems start.
Yes he would be totally missing the boat. Therefore someone who begins by saying that there is whom to rely upon is also missing the boat.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1209 on: July 25, 2017, 04:07:26 PM »
Therefore someone who begins by saying that there is whom to rely upon is also missing the boat.
If that was directed at me than I certainly missed the boat on what you're trying to say. :P

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1210 on: July 25, 2017, 04:09:38 PM »
If that was directed at me than I certainly missed the boat on what you're trying to say. :P
No that was not directed at you. My point is only that the misconception is in both directions.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1211 on: July 25, 2017, 04:39:21 PM »
As I said at the time that I originally mentioned it, it was over 20 years ago and my memory of exactly what it was is fuzzy.
It's a highly implausible event which you very fuzzily 'remember', hardly testimony in my book. anything that it proves can be proved from other events. any proof that relies specifically on that event should probably be rejected due to poor evidence.

I'd appreciate if you stop repeatedly bringing up that alleged event, then, when challenged, start waffling. put up or shut up.

or, as we say around here: POIDH
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 05:19:57 PM by gozalim »

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1212 on: July 25, 2017, 04:43:27 PM »
I'd appreciate if you stop repeatedly bringing up that fantasy, then, when challenged, back off. put up or shut up.

Wow, your tone in that paragraph is a bit harsh...

#notasamod

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1213 on: July 25, 2017, 04:48:58 PM »
With all the boats being missed, we are still missing any substantive posts. Despite several attempt to fish for those, it seems like everyone prefers going around in circles around the edges, without discussing substance.

We've gone more than 80 posts since I directly and substantively addressed the article that @mgarfin quoted today, which revived this thread, yet not one post, one way or another, addressed my assertion that the PREMISE which is part of the foundation of the article, is WRONG and should be UNIVERSALLY seen as such.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1214 on: July 25, 2017, 04:52:42 PM »
It's a highly implausible event which you very fuzzily 'remember', hardly testimony in my book. anything that it proves can be proved from other events. any proof that relies specifically on that event should probably be rejected due to poor evidence.

I'd appreciate if you stop repeatedly bringing up that fantasy, then, when challenged, back off. put up or shut up.

or, as we say around here: POIDH
Didn't sleep well last night?

If you don't want to believe me that is your choice. I do understand that it is an extreme fringe, possibly very small and marginalized etc.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1215 on: July 25, 2017, 05:00:14 PM »
I feel bad as I had no intention of reviving and rechewing old stuff.
In these 80 posts, no new ideas were put out.

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1216 on: July 25, 2017, 05:01:17 PM »
In the last 800 posts, no new ideas were put out.
FTFY :P

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1217 on: July 25, 2017, 05:14:02 PM »
FTFY :P
So you are inferring that the first 400 or so posts are worth reading?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1218 on: July 25, 2017, 05:19:07 PM »
So you are inferring that the first 400 or so posts are worth reading?
The first 700 posts were constructive IIRC.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1219 on: July 25, 2017, 05:23:15 PM »
Didn't sleep well last night?

If you don't want to believe me that is your choice. I do understand that it is an extreme fringe, possibly very small and marginalized etc.
It's not about me wanting to believe you, it's about your unwillingness to stand behind your own 'testimony'.
if your going to allege an event, especially one that's quite a חידוש compared to anything anyone else has run into, stand behind your memory.

If your memory is fuzzy, please stop regurgitating it every time this topic comes up. An event that likely never happened, or at best happened very differently than is being described, hardly has any bearing on a reasonable discussion.