Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 242447 times)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1220 on: July 25, 2017, 05:27:21 PM »
It's not about me wanting to believe you, it's about your unwillingness to stand behind your own 'testimony'.
if your going to allege an event, especially one that's quite a חידוש compared to anything anyone else has run into, stand behind your memory.

If your memory is fuzzy, please stop regurgitating it every time this topic comes up. An event that likely never happened, or at best happened very differently than is being described, hardly has any bearing on a reasonable discussion.
It isn't a testimony and has never been meant as more than an illustration.

Do you feel that there are not any fringes at all who have gone too far and/or have gone off the deep end?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3754
  • Total likes: 9970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1221 on: July 25, 2017, 05:28:25 PM »
It isn't a testimony and has never been meant as more than an illustration.

Do you feel that there are not any fringes at all who have gone too far and/or have gone off the deep end?

So far as to include the 13 ikrim in the siddur?!?!?!
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3216
  • Total likes: 1232
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1222 on: July 25, 2017, 05:30:14 PM »
So you are inferring that the first 400 or so posts are worth reading?
No, I was saying that's been far longer than 80 posts since anything new was posted.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1223 on: July 25, 2017, 05:30:19 PM »
So far as to include the 13 ikrim in the siddur?!?!?!
Do you mean that the way it is writeen?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63539
  • Total likes: 10903
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1224 on: July 25, 2017, 05:31:28 PM »
Do you mean that the way it is writeen?
Given that there is no Chabad siddur that has those, your story does strain credibility.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13272
  • Total likes: 5057
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1225 on: July 25, 2017, 05:38:57 PM »
Given that there is no Chabad siddur that has those, your story does strain credibility.
Except see page 118 of https://books.google.com/books?id=-UQ2AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D&f=false

Though AFAIK that wasn't readily available 20 years ago (as pointed out in page 4 of said siddur). It was (re)printed only 8 years ago.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 05:52:33 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3754
  • Total likes: 9970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1226 on: July 25, 2017, 06:20:19 PM »
Do you mean that the way it is writeen?
Oh Geez. If you have to explain the joke...
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1227 on: July 25, 2017, 06:31:01 PM »
Oh Geez. If you have to explain the joke...
I understood the joke but wasn't sure if it was a joke or a typo.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1228 on: July 25, 2017, 06:32:04 PM »
Given that there is no Chabad siddur that has those, your story does strain credibility.
THen it was something else in the siddur as I mentioned before. This is really getting caught on a very irrelevant point.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13272
  • Total likes: 5057
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1229 on: July 25, 2017, 06:37:33 PM »
I understood the joke but wasn't sure if it was a joke or a typo.
Only that it's not that much of a joke, try to print a נוסח אר"י siddur and have י"ג עקרים printed in it, and see how well it is accepted.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1319
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1230 on: July 25, 2017, 09:02:16 PM »
So you are inferring that the first 400 or so posts are worth reading?
I actually thought the beginning of this thread was very constructive and I leant a lot about the "other" perspective on this

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13272
  • Total likes: 5057
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1231 on: July 25, 2017, 09:03:49 PM »
I actually thought the beginning of this thread was very constructive and I leant a lot about the "other" perspective on this
Might save that for תשעה באב reading.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2322
  • Total likes: 206
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1232 on: July 25, 2017, 09:06:09 PM »
To go off topic. Chabad has set out that they use נוסח אר"י and all other Chasidim nusach Sfared.
But I think other Chasidim also believe they are Davening Nusach Ari.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1233 on: July 25, 2017, 09:10:27 PM »
To go off topic. Chabad has set out that they use נוסח אר"י and all other Chasidim nusach Sfared.
But I think other Chasidim also believe they are Davening Nusach Ari.
And neither is factually correct
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13272
  • Total likes: 5057
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1234 on: July 25, 2017, 09:28:10 PM »
To go off topic. Chabad has set out that they use נוסח אר"י and all other Chasidim nusach Sfared.
But I think other Chasidim also believe they are Davening Nusach Ari.
While searching for the קרבן מנחה I posted above, I came across the following interesting article on the topic: http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=blog_new&article_id=208&lang=hebrew
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline high end hobo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 1587
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1235 on: July 25, 2017, 09:58:20 PM »
This thread is supposed to be locked for a reason...

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1902
  • Total likes: 141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1236 on: July 26, 2017, 02:07:35 AM »
With all the boats being missed, we are still missing any substantive posts. Despite several attempt to fish for those, it seems like everyone prefers going around in circles around the edges, without discussing substance.

We've gone more than 80 posts since I directly and substantively addressed the article that @mgarfin quoted today, which revived this thread, yet not one post, one way or another, addressed my assertion that the PREMISE which is part of the foundation of the article, is WRONG and should be UNIVERSALLY seen as such.
What is that premise?

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3412
  • Total likes: 345
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1237 on: July 26, 2017, 02:12:12 AM »
Did I accuse you of being unobjective or not having an open mind?
You could have easily done תשובה by posting the appropriate link: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11489.msg1716547#msg1716547 wouldn't have been to hard to get the link using Google or forum search.
I took it that way. sorry for being choished your chashad. Teshuvah is next month. :)
You need to answer for the pri tzadik also...:P
that's a litvishe sefer :)

Offline MeirS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 2551
  • Total likes: 158
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1238 on: July 26, 2017, 04:00:42 AM »
And neither is factually correct
The Sidur we use clearly says on its cover
על פי נוסח האר''י ז''ל
כפי אשר יסד.... כ''ק... מוהר''ר שניאור זלמן נבג''מ בעל התניא והשו''ע

It's the Alter Rebbe's version of נוסח האר''י

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14790
  • Total likes: 10407
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1239 on: July 26, 2017, 08:00:37 AM »
The Sidur we use clearly says on its cover
על פי נוסח האר''י ז''ל
כפי אשר יסד.... כ''ק... מוהר''ר שניאור זלמן נבג''מ בעל התניא והשו''ע

It's the Alter Rebbe's version of נוסח האר''י
Exactly. Both are an adaptation of the Ashkenazi siddur to incorporate parts of nusach Ari
Feelings don't care about your facts