Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 241382 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7273
  • Total likes: 295
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1280 on: July 27, 2017, 08:05:35 AM »
Where did you hear that? At what point in the video?
You weren't around in the good days here, but back up thread, the thing that really touched a nerve was the notion that all these various brands of "crazies" didn't start in a vacuum. - they were directly led astray...

Not at all intending to rehash this all, but I do sincerely wish that 20+ years later, some chassidim took a fresh look with an open mind.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1281 on: July 27, 2017, 08:10:18 AM »
Pretty low of you

This is the minimum way a person should relate to anything chabad related:
Is it that faction which did so much or are they taking advantage of or hiding behind those which did?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1282 on: July 27, 2017, 08:26:30 AM »
You weren't around in the good days here, but back up thread, the thing that really touched a nerve was the notion that all these various brands of "crazies" didn't start in a vacuum. - they were directly led astray...

Not at all intending to rehash this all, but I do sincerely wish that 20+ years later, some chassidim took a fresh look with an open mind.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, but rather that these things are a logical future outcome and bound to happen. Of course those who went that far are the fringe extreme elements but they did not create the path they only dared to travel on it. This seems to have been the issue with Sabbateanism long before it became clear that he went off the deep end. This seems to have been the issue the Rav Shach had while the Rebbe was still alive. This seems to have been the issue at the beginning of chassidus. (all this in my understanding) When I wrote in other threads that it is possible that the cherem is what kept chassidus in check it is that it may have prevented these types of things from happening sooner.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63466
  • Total likes: 10871
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1283 on: July 27, 2017, 08:29:48 AM »
A recurring theme that the Rebbe is the embodiment of G-d in flesh and blood. 9:40, 29:00 and several other places.

I am not at all educated in Toras Chasidus.  To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain.
What is that clip anyway?

Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1902
  • Total likes: 141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1284 on: July 27, 2017, 08:32:30 AM »
What is that clip anyway?
No idea
Quote
Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.
He's quoting from the Tzemach Tzedek's and the Rebbe's writtings, among others.  Albeit his interpetation.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1285 on: July 27, 2017, 08:32:36 AM »
What is that clip anyway?

Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.
The point is these extreme fringes exist and while everyone who is not Lubavitch sees them very clearly many Lubavitchers seem to have their heads in the sand about them as can be seen right here in this thread.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 12422
  • Total likes: 3591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1286 on: July 27, 2017, 08:37:23 AM »
I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, but rather that these things are a logical future outcome and bound to happen. Of course those who went that far are the fringe extreme elements but they did not create the path they only dared to travel on it. This seems to have been the issue with Sabbateanism long before it became clear that he went off the deep end. This seems to have been the issue the Rav Shach had while the Rebbe was still alive. This seems to have been the issue at the beginning of chassidus. (all this in my understanding) When I wrote in other threads that it is possible that the cherem is what kept chassidus in check it is that it may have prevented these types of things from happening sooner.
The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.

If only a cherem was made on Jews back then maybe not as many Jews from be fry now?
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63466
  • Total likes: 10871
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1287 on: July 27, 2017, 08:38:24 AM »
The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.


A recurring theme that the Rebbe is the embodiment of G-d in flesh and blood. 9:40, 29:00 and several other places.

I am not at all educated in Toras Chasidus.  To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain.
Anything can be twisted what else is new?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63466
  • Total likes: 10871
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1288 on: July 27, 2017, 08:40:26 AM »
The point is these extreme fringes exist and while everyone who is not Lubavitch sees them very clearly many Lubavitchers seem to have their heads in the sand about them as can be seen right here in this thread.
Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 12422
  • Total likes: 3591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1289 on: July 27, 2017, 08:42:06 AM »
Anything can be twisted what else is new?
Esspecially after the fact.

One of my rebbeim who generally gave great mussar schmoozes decided that the holocaust happened because Europe Jewry were all going off the derech and haskala was infiltrating every yeshiva. Old style shtetl Judaism wasn't going to survive. And look everyone came to America and now we have so many frum people. That's why hashem did it.

And I thought he was crazy. But hey maybe he'd right no one can prove him wrong after the fact. He thinks it was the greatest thing in other words.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 12422
  • Total likes: 3591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1290 on: July 27, 2017, 08:43:39 AM »
Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?
I've a few litvish friends who love mussar and said they would happily commit suicide right now if they knew they would get into gan Eden after. That's a bit loony to me too.  But it's just an offshoot of musar right?
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1291 on: July 27, 2017, 08:44:00 AM »
Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?
The differences between their lunacies are night and day very literally.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1292 on: July 27, 2017, 08:46:32 AM »
Esspecially after the fact.

One of my rebbeim who generally gave great mussar schmoozes decided that the holocaust happened because Europe Jewry were all going off the derech and haskala was infiltrating every yeshiva. Old style shtetl Judaism wasn't going to survive. And look everyone came to America and now we have so many frum people. That's why hashem did it.

And I thought he was crazy. But hey maybe he'd right no one can prove him wrong after the fact. He thinks it was the greatest thing in other words.
The meshech chachma wrote it before the holocaust. Rav Shach saw it before it happened.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63466
  • Total likes: 10871
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1293 on: July 27, 2017, 08:48:00 AM »
How is a nutjob NK night and day from a Chabad nutjob?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1294 on: July 27, 2017, 08:53:11 AM »
How is a nutjob NK night and day from a Chabad nutjob?
You don't see the vast difference between NK and these guys on the video the way it is being described here?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 63466
  • Total likes: 10871
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1295 on: July 27, 2017, 08:54:33 AM »
Who are these guys on the video??
They're clearly not Lubavitchers.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 12422
  • Total likes: 3591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1296 on: July 27, 2017, 08:57:02 AM »
The meshech chachma wrote it before the holocaust. Rav Shach saw it before it happened.
Can we agree not to start a Rav Shach debate now? I think it was also done in part at least up thread.

I hope you see my point. here:
The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.

See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14761
  • Total likes: 10323
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1297 on: July 27, 2017, 09:00:31 AM »
Who are these guys on the video??
They're clearly not Lubavitchers.
No true Scotsman? How so?

You didn't answer about seeing a difference.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7273
  • Total likes: 295
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1298 on: July 27, 2017, 09:01:48 AM »


I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, .

As a non chabadsker, you should please properly study the Torah, the directives, and the actions of the leadership. - I doubt you have properly done this. - an unbiased person would objectively see the truth. - there are hundreds of strange and suspect sayings, actions that directly caused the confusion.etc etc. Etc.

I would guess that your familiarity of chabad world view is limited to what you heard from the opposition.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 12422
  • Total likes: 3591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1299 on: July 27, 2017, 09:03:53 AM »

As a non chabadsker, you should please properly study the Torah, the directives, and the actions of the leadership. - I doubt you have properly done this. - an unbiased person would objectively see the truth. - there are hundreds of strange and suspect sayings, actions that directly caused the confusion.etc etc. Etc.

I would guess that your familiarity of chabad world view is limited to what you heard from the opposition.
An unbiased person would objectively see the truth.

Hear hear.

I doubt you have properly done this.

Hear hear.

See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)