Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 196718 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1340 on: July 27, 2017, 05:13:56 PM »
that's not uplifting? :)
In the Yeshiva world Mussar is the study of self development, which is uplifting. Not fear mongering, which is not. Will OCD people feed into that @henche? maybe. But that's not what it is, in the colloquial sense, wikipedia notwithstanding.

Hey, I don't make the rules, I just break them.
 
I spent a very long time in the "yeshiva world" and I seen what I seen.

Did you see what I was referencing?

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1341 on: July 27, 2017, 05:37:47 PM »
Should we have a spin-off Lunacy Among Litvaks?

Nah, more ppl will see it here.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1342 on: July 27, 2017, 05:45:11 PM »
Should we have a spin-off Lunacy Among Litvaks?

Nah, more ppl will see it here.

Lunatic Litvaks - Now there's a show that needs to go on the road.
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Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1343 on: July 27, 2017, 07:23:17 PM »
Maybe Exgingi can weigh in, but he's prob on the defending side :P

At @jj1000's request, I will weigh in. Though I am not sure who he might think I am defending. I am also definitely not an authority on Chassidus, nor am I an arbiter of who is or isn't Lubavitch (FWIW, I would challenge anyone who threw around the labels "Lubavitch" or "Chabad" claiming that someone is or someone isn't, to explain how he became the arbiter of this, or who is the arbiter he is relying upon).

I've taken hands off for a short while, as I wanted to see how different people would respond. I thank @Dan for putting together what seems to be a synopsis of this thread. I had originally intended to go back and read it on Tisha B'Av, and while I have actually started and gone through the first 10 pages (and found it interesting that @Lamdan who was alerted to his 770 post count, seems to have been deprecated to 749  ;) - sorry outsiders, you've got to be an insider to appreciate that one), this synopsis was helpful.

I will also admit, that I didn't view the video before posting, the link was sent to me, and I watched the first few minutes, saw that he's mostly reading quotes, so I figured that it can't be too bad, as I will never try to deny or try to twist anything the Rebbe wrote or said.

I have gone back and listened to the entire thing now, and read what has been posted since, and have the following takeaways.

CBC isn't doing any good to his arguments by stating something that is simply not there even in the video. We can discuss or argue about what is there, you aren't making yourself any more credible by stating something that isn't even there ("walk on water").

@Dan might not "see the good from the yellow flag movement" and said he may be called anti for that (as a side note, from the first 10 pages of this thread that I read, I've seen @Dan use that word several times, and was wondering how does the concept of "anti" jive with Lubavitch philosophy, and for that matter even "live and let live" in a certain context doesn't seem congruent with Lubavitch teachings). And while I have my personal opinions about the yellow flags, there are quite a few Chabad Houses (or mushrooms, as some might call them) around the world (especially in India, some in Latin America, and other places) that have done very good. I've never been to the Ritzaliya, but every time I am in Israel, I visit Herzliya. That Chabad House is pretty famous for the intensity of Yechi. FWIW It happens to actually be a "non-mushroom", and is lead by a tremendous תלמיד חכם, who has built an amazing קהילה, that could be the pride of many. His weekly shiur in Likutey Torah, as well as other shiurim and farbrengens are available on this YouTube channel.  Has anyone who has been to the Ritzaliya ever benefitted from Chabad of Herzliya? I would also encourage anyone to see the fruit of the yeshiva in Ramat Aviv, many of whom started off in Chabad Houses across India.

In a certain way, one might equate @Dan's statement about not seeing anything worthwhile but restaurants "from yellow flag unofficial chabad houses across the globe :P" (sorry, I am no expert on emoji's and aren't sure how to interpret that one), to how Dr. Dahan paraphrases the Rebbe in the video, saying that if one doesn't see the Rebbe, it is not because there was any real change with the Rebbe, but rather because the viewer is limited.

@Boruch999 is being intellectually honest, in admitting that he is "not at all educated in Toras Chasidus." and that "To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain" (sic). As I have pointed out several times, in order to be able to make an argument one way or the other, it would be beneficial to at least have a cursory knowledge of what Toras Hachassidus says. As for the "frighteningly Christian", it is very unfortunate that the lack of understanding of Chassidus (and possibly also of Christianity, I wouldn't know), combined with Dr. Dahan's interpretations, half-quotes, or even unanswered questions (such as the "question" he asks at 6:31 - which is simply and truthfully answered with this), would obviously make "the unitiated litvak" feel that way. However, rather than draw conclusions (as others might have), it would be more beneficial to look up the quotes he brings (not too hard these days when GIYF), see them in context, along with the מראי מקומות, before commenting. @Dan's response that "anything can be twisted" does little to contribute. Rather post a link to this where the quote Dr. Dahan brings can be seen in its full context, along with the footnotes.

My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC. I can easily see that attitude leading one to denounce or even decry Eliyohu Hanovi's actions on Har Hacarmel, and possibly even to call the Rambam an apikuros and denounce not only his philosophy and teachings, but even his actions and rulings (I just recently read that he was mevatel חזרת הש"ץ on Shabbos and YomTov, something that was only restored in Mitzraim some 350 years later!).

Despite pointing out @aygart, CBC seems to be somewhat guilty of the same, when Dr. Dahan mentions the machlokes about צמצום כפשוטו or צמצום לאו כפשוטו (regardless of where he takes that). Are you at all familiar with the concept or some of the sources regarding this?

It cannot be stressed enough, that the trap of labeling or name calling, results falling into the trap of answering questions that should not be answered, not because there is nothing to answer, but because they are relying on hollow labels, attaching assumptions to those, etc. etc.

Also, a point that cannot be left unmentioned, is the constant mixing up (not to mention homogenizing) of terms, labels, groups, etc. Not everyone that says Yechi bares a yellow flag, not everyone that bares a yellow flag and says Yechi doesn't go to the Ohel, not everyone that goes to the Ohel or says Yechi, or bares a yellow flag would be called a Lubavitcher (or Chabad) by those who have been using those titles here (or deemed non-Lubavitchers or non-Chabad). That is one of the reasons why it is totally pointless to discuss "sects" or "factions" but rather one could debate Torah and/or ideology.

Also, taking everything Dr. Dahan is quoting/saying and pinning it to "3 wackos that live in tzfas", is any less twisting than what Dr. Dahan or others might be doing. I am not saying that there aren't "wackos" out there, but most Chasidim or the Rebbe wouldn't be considered "wackos" by most people, yet would stand behind the quotes in proper context, even if they were to sound "out of line" to "the uninitiated litvak".

And while I agree with @Dan that rather than one listening to the way Dr. Dahan reads and interprets מצוות מינוי מלך as explain in דרך מצוותיך, one should go to a local person who is capable of learning the actual source with you, since we know that it might not happen, at the very least, [urlhttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=225]look up the sefer[/url] (and while you're at it you might want to learn some other fundamental concepts in brought in the rest of the sefer) , and/or some online shuirim rather than take the word of an academic with an agenda (are there any without?).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 07:26:55 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1344 on: July 27, 2017, 07:30:49 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1345 on: July 27, 2017, 07:32:37 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
Let him speak for himself on that one, but I think the judge on that one brilliantly got out of ruling on it.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1346 on: July 27, 2017, 07:33:06 PM »
Let him speak for himself on that one, but I think the judge on that one brilliantly got out of ruling on it.
Link?
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1347 on: July 27, 2017, 07:36:40 PM »
@exg, "walking on water" was a cynical comment that bh you missed.

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1348 on: July 27, 2017, 07:38:49 PM »
My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC.
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1349 on: July 27, 2017, 07:39:42 PM »
@exg, "walking on water" was a cynical comment that bh you missed.
Until now that you pointed it out to him.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1350 on: July 27, 2017, 07:44:45 PM »


Wow!  Kudos to you for investing the time and effort in a clear, comprehensive, sincere, and respectful response. 

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1351 on: July 27, 2017, 07:57:17 PM »
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.

+1. 

I have several times picked up Chasiddishe seforim with the intent of browsing through and learning a bit of what so many of my brothers spend many hours studying.  The first time I was young and idealistic and thought to broaden my horizons.  I was shaken to the core by what I perceived as heresy on the very first pages. Intellectually I knew it could not be so, and I approached a talmid chochem to explain to me why it was not.  He explained to me that the context necessary to properly understand these sefarim is vast and something chassidim are educated in from a young age.  I am as of yet not prepared to dedicate the time to acquire all the basics.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1352 on: July 27, 2017, 08:56:49 PM »
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.
If you acknowledge that there's background context to the statements and are unwiling/unable to invest the time in reading them, you might refrain from passing superficial judgment on things you admit to not knowing

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1353 on: July 27, 2017, 08:58:53 PM »
If you acknowledge that there's background context to the statements and are unwiling/unable to invest the time in reading them, you might refrain from passing superficial judgment on things you admit to not knowing
Did you read only the end of what I wrote and not the beginning?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1354 on: July 27, 2017, 09:26:46 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
That's exactly what I was asking. lol.

But anyway, Nice talk @ExGingi well put. I feel bad you did all that for me, but it's an epic post either way.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1355 on: July 27, 2017, 09:28:35 PM »
That's exactly what I was asking. lol.

But anyway, Nice talk @ExGingi well put. I feel bad you did all that for me, but it's an epic post either way.
No bad feeling. On the contrary, you gave me a good opening for my post. And thanks for the compliment.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1356 on: July 27, 2017, 10:31:24 PM »
To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1357 on: July 27, 2017, 10:42:21 PM »
What does mussar have to do with suicide and gan Eden?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
What does chassidus have to do with him being hashem or other apikorsus?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1358 on: July 27, 2017, 10:43:53 PM »
To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?

Well this is shocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Authorship

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries."

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of Jews are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1359 on: July 27, 2017, 10:46:03 PM »
What does anything the Rebbe taught have to do with him being hashem or other apikorsus?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.