Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 145032 times)

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1350 on: July 27, 2017, 07:44:45 PM »


Wow!  Kudos to you for investing the time and effort in a clear, comprehensive, sincere, and respectful response. 

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1351 on: July 27, 2017, 07:57:17 PM »
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.

+1. 

I have several times picked up Chasiddishe seforim with the intent of browsing through and learning a bit of what so many of my brothers spend many hours studying.  The first time I was young and idealistic and thought to broaden my horizons.  I was shaken to the core by what I perceived as heresy on the very first pages. Intellectually I knew it could not be so, and I approached a talmid chochem to explain to me why it was not.  He explained to me that the context necessary to properly understand these sefarim is vast and something chassidim are educated in from a young age.  I am as of yet not prepared to dedicate the time to acquire all the basics.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1352 on: July 27, 2017, 08:56:49 PM »
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.
If you acknowledge that there's background context to the statements and are unwiling/unable to invest the time in reading them, you might refrain from passing superficial judgment on things you admit to not knowing

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1353 on: July 27, 2017, 08:58:53 PM »
If you acknowledge that there's background context to the statements and are unwiling/unable to invest the time in reading them, you might refrain from passing superficial judgment on things you admit to not knowing
Did you read only the end of what I wrote and not the beginning?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1354 on: July 27, 2017, 09:26:46 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
That's exactly what I was asking. lol.

But anyway, Nice talk @ExGingi well put. I feel bad you did all that for me, but it's an epic post either way.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1355 on: July 27, 2017, 09:28:35 PM »
That's exactly what I was asking. lol.

But anyway, Nice talk @ExGingi well put. I feel bad you did all that for me, but it's an epic post either way.
No bad feeling. On the contrary, you gave me a good opening for my post. And thanks for the compliment.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1356 on: July 27, 2017, 10:31:24 PM »
To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1357 on: July 27, 2017, 10:42:21 PM »
What does mussar have to do with suicide and gan Eden?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
What does chassidus have to do with him being hashem or other apikorsus?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1358 on: July 27, 2017, 10:43:53 PM »
To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?

Well this is shocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Authorship

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries."

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of Jews are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats?
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1359 on: July 27, 2017, 10:46:03 PM »
What does anything the Rebbe taught have to do with him being hashem or other apikorsus?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1360 on: July 27, 2017, 10:48:55 PM »
Well this is shocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Authorship

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries."

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of Jews are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats?
We don't shove anything! It's emuna peshuta, administered in a baby bottle. - make it very simple. Poshut. Not much confusion on the basics here..

(Plenty of other issues bh.)

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1361 on: July 27, 2017, 10:52:48 PM »
Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.
Holy mother of flagpoles! I just realized my heretical addiction to steak and beer is thanks to my exposure to the concept of ohr and shefa.

Thanks, CBC! I'm on the road to recovery.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1362 on: July 27, 2017, 10:57:57 PM »
Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.
We don't shove anything! It's emuna peshuta, administered in a baby bottle. - make it very simple. Poshut. Not much confusion on the basics here..

(Plenty of other issues bh.)
You claimed it wasn't simple because Dan and others said scholars don't understand it, well you claim scholars don't understand where the torah came from, you realize someone else would say to you that clearly there is a problem if many scholars can't even understand it. And it's not something you should be teaching your kids because it's too confusing. And look thousands of people that raise their kids like that go off the derech, do drugs, commit suicide etc.

I hope this makes sense.

My point simply is that just because some people turn out a certain way it 1. doesn't mean causation but rather correlation, and 2. Just because things may seam one way doesn't mean we don't do it. Such as with teaching any religion, just because X amount of people turn out a certain way doesn't mean that the thing itself is bad.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1363 on: July 27, 2017, 11:00:17 PM »
Holy mother of flagpoles! I just realized my heretical addiction to steak and beer is thanks to my exposure to the concept of ohr and shefa.

Thanks, CBC! I'm on the road to recovery.
I 100% blame farbrangens for me liking a good flavored or schmaltz herring. I hope I too, can recover one day.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1364 on: July 27, 2017, 11:00:43 PM »
Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.
Let's differentiate between צמצום הראשון, which is what I mentioned (as it was mentioned by in the video), and other tzimzumim.

I don't know at what point it is taught (I didn't learn in Chabad before I was 16, and even then my experience leaves much to be desired, let's just say that it is a miracle how things turned out for me in life).

IMHO צמצום לאו כפשוטו, should be understood by a teenager, as explained by the Alter Rebbe in שער היחוד והאמונה, on the other hand understanding the option (of the Gr"a IINM) that צמצום הראשון is כפשוטו, is a lot harder to comprehend as not being heresy.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:47:55 PM by ExGingi »
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