Messianism among Lubavitch

[churnbabychurn]

Well this is shocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Authorship

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries."

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of Jews are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats?

We don't shove anything! It's emuna peshuta, administered in a baby bottle. - make it very simple. Poshut. Not much confusion on the basics here..

(Plenty of other issues bh.)

[Yehuda57]

Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.

Holy mother of flagpoles! I just realized my heretical addiction to steak and beer is thanks to my exposure to the concept of ohr and shefa.

Thanks, CBC! I'm on the road to recovery.

[jj1000]

Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.

We don't shove anything! It's emuna peshuta, administered in a baby bottle. - make it very simple. Poshut. Not much confusion on the basics here..

(Plenty of other issues bh.)

You claimed it wasn't simple because Dan and others said scholars don't understand it, well you claim scholars don't understand where the torah came from, you realize someone else would say to you that clearly there is a problem if many scholars can't even understand it. And it's not something you should be teaching your kids because it's too confusing. And look thousands of people that raise their kids like that go off the derech, do drugs, commit suicide etc.

I hope this makes sense.

My point simply is that just because some people turn out a certain way it 1. doesn't mean causation but rather correlation, and 2. Just because things may seam one way doesn't mean we don't do it. Such as with teaching any religion, just because X amount of people turn out a certain way doesn't mean that the thing itself is bad.

[jj1000]

Holy mother of flagpoles! I just realized my heretical addiction to steak and beer is thanks to my exposure to the concept of ohr and shefa.

Thanks, CBC! I'm on the road to recovery.

I 100% blame farbrangens for me liking a good flavored or schmaltz herring. I hope I too, can recover one day.

[ExGingi]

Let's start with "tzimtzum" - mentioned by exgingi... Is this taught to 7th-10th graders? Is this "chassidus"?

Can this deeply befuddling topic cause people to wanna become alcoholics and wave a yellow flag?
I think so.
I'm not going to discuss any Rebbe - we've done all that... Just saying that the confusion is deeply rooted.

Let's differentiate between צמצום הראשון, which is what I mentioned (as it was mentioned by in the video), and other tzimzumim.

I don't know at what point it is taught (I didn't learn in Chabad before I was 16, and even then my experience leaves much to be desired, let's just say that it is a miracle how things turned out for me in life).

IMHO צמצום לאו כפשוטו, should be understood by a teenager, as explained by the Alter Rebbe in שער היחוד והאמונה, on the other hand understanding the option (of the Gr"a IINM) that צמצום הראשון is כפשוטו, is a lot harder to comprehend as not being heresy.

[ExGingi]

I 100% blame farbrangens for me liking a good flavored or schmaltz herring. I hope I too, can recover one day.

I don't know in which farbrengen you were hanging out. Schmaltz Herring - Absolutely אז איך רייד נאר וועגן דעם, קומט מיר זאפט אין מויל (though most farbrengen don't have such fancy delicacies). Flavored???

[Baruch]

A chosid beleives that his Rebbe is Moshiach of his generation. This isn't exclusive to Chabad.

Please stop repeating that. It is not true. No Chassidus believes that part of being a Chassid is believing the Rebbe is Moshiach.
(I highly doubt Lubavitch itself thought that way in the RaShab's times- but I don't know, maybe they did.)



 

[jj1000]

I don't know in which farbrengen you were hanging out. Schmaltz Herring - Absolutely אז איך רייד נאר וועגן דעם, קומט מיר זאפט אין מויל (though most farbrengen don't have such fancy delicacies). Flavored???

A shliach in yeshiva in LA made the best schmaltz herring for most farbys. Nosson Deitch avh used to get me a good supply of it

Benzies always sold good flavored herrings.

[Dan]

Please stop repeating that. It is not true. No Chassidus believes that part of being a Chassid is believing the Rebbe is Moshiach.
(I highly doubt Lubavitch itself thought that way in the RaShab's times- but I don't know, maybe they did.)

No need to take it from me, take it from a Belzer:

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach

I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

[Dan]

And if you don't believe your Rebbe to be nosi/manhig hador, that there's something missing in your Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

[EJB]

A chosid beleives that his Rebbe is Moshiach of his generation. This isn't exclusive to Chabad.

What's your basis for this? I've never heard of meshichists from other chassidic sects, even from rebbis that are alive. All have deep respect for their rebbe, but to think he is mashiach??? really???

[Baruch]

Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".

One story of 1 Rebbe who said that him and his friends thought their praticular Rebbe was Moshiach, is not a proof to be able to make such a broad statement. Nor are a few random quotes in a few random sefarim

And there definitely was never a Chassidus that was so public about their Rebbe being Moshiach.

And why weren't the Chassidim of the Baal HaTanya singing "Yechi"?

This is the only subject where I hear you making claims that aren't solid. It's so un"Dan"like.

[EJB]

And if you don't believe your Rebbe to be nosi/manhig hador, that there's something missing in your Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

That doesn't equate to him being the mashiach of his generation. Nor does it justify the belief that he is still mashiach after he dies, even if no rebbe replaces him.

[Dan]

What's your basis for this? I've never heard of meshichists from other chassidic sects, even from rebbis that are alive. All have deep respect for their rebbe, but to think he is mashiach??? really???

Start here and go look up the sources: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg1779382#msg1779382

[jj1000]

Please stop repeating that. It is not true. No Chassidus believes that part of being a Chassid is believing the Rebbe is Moshiach.
(I highly doubt Lubavitch itself thought that way in the RaShab's times- but I don't know, maybe they did.)



 

So now beliefs are different if they are public or private? I'm not sure what your point is here.

The whole point of this thread was to help one inquisitive DDF'er understand how it's possible to not be apikarsus to believe that someone can be assumed mashiach even if they passed away. And some other basic questions about chabad today.

[Dan]

And there definitely was never a Chassidus that was so public about their Rebbe being Moshiach.

And why weren't the Chassidim of the Baal HaTanya singing "Yechi"?

The publicity of the matter is what this is all about. Most won't publicize it or don't koch in the concept of Moshiach. Many Jews couldn't care less about Moshiach.

Lubavitchers said Yechi in the early 90s because they hoped it would bring Moshiach.

The vast majority of Lubavitchers today don't say Yechi. But for the ones that do, that's their prerogative.

[Baruch]

So now beliefs are different if they are public or private? I'm not sure what your point is here.

The whole point of this thread was to help one inquisitive DDF'er understand how it's possible to not be apikarsus to believe that someone can be assumed mashiach even if they passed away. And some other basic questions about chabad today.

As I've stated many times, saying that someone who says that Moshiach is someone who comes from the dead is an Apikorus, is intellectually dishonest.

But it is also intellectually dishonest to say that all Chassidusim believe that a Chasid must think his Rebbe is Moshiach.

[Dan]

That doesn't equate to him being the mashiach of his generation. Nor does it justify the belief that he is still mashiach after he dies, even if no rebbe replaces him.

Actually it does. Go read through the first half of this thread.

[Dan]

As I've stated many times, saying that someone who says that Moshiach is someone who comes from the dead is an Apikorus, is intellectually dishonest.

But it is also intellectually dishonest to say that all Chassidusim believe that a Chasid must think his Rebbe is Moshiach.

The quotes from the sefarim above are very weak, that a tzaddik has a nitzutz of moshiach etc.

Obviously these things are taluy b'hergesh. Nobody is screaming it from the rooftops.
But if you don't believe your Rebbe to  be the nosi/manhig ha'dor, then something is missing in your relationship.
And the nosi/manhig ha'dor is the moshiach of that dor.

[EJB]

Start here and go look up the sources: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg1779382#msg1779382

You've gotta be kidding me. Have you read the "sources?" For one, only one of them actually calls someone "mashiach." I'm sure you'll find hundreds of sources talking about qualities and elements of mashiach, as these do. But to say that virtually every chassiic sect believes their rebbi is mashiach (none of the sources referenced said that manhig hador = mashiach, btw), and if not, there is something lacking in their rebbe-chosid relationship? That's a stretch. I'm not saying it's wrong to think that (though after death is another story), but I don't think it's a universal concept.