Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 145185 times)

Offline EJB

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1380 on: July 27, 2017, 11:21:36 PM »
Actually it does. Go read through the first half of this thread.

I wish I had time to read 50 pages of posts. But the recent ones all make logical leaps and misread sources, so even if I had the time to read 50 pages, I wouldn't subject myself to that.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1381 on: July 27, 2017, 11:22:18 PM »
You've gotta be kidding me. Have you read the "sources?" For one, only one of them actually calls someone "mashiach." I'm sure you'll find hundreds of sources talking about qualities and elements of mashiach, as these do. But to say that virtually every chassiic sect believes their rebbi is mashiach (none of the sources referenced said that manhig hador = mashiach, btw), and if not, there is something lacking in their rebbe-chosid relationship? That's a stretch. I'm not saying it's wrong to think that (though after death is another story), but I don't think it's a universal concept.
If you're not a Chosid then I can't explain it to you on one leg and this is nothing but silly speculation.
If you are a Chosid, besides Satmar, feel free to post your thoughts.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1382 on: July 27, 2017, 11:22:40 PM »
The quotes from the sefarim above are very weak, they say that a tzaddik has a nitzutz of moshiach etc.


And the whole idea, that each Chasiddus can believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach (even though there's only 1 Moshiach [ben david]), reminds me of when Cee Lo Green's changed the words of 'Imagine' from "and no religion too", to "and all religions true".
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:29:13 PM by Baruch »
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Offline EJB

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1383 on: July 27, 2017, 11:23:53 PM »
If you're not a Chosid then I can't explain it to you on one leg.
If you are a Chosid, besides Satmar, feel free to post your thoughts.

Ah, so now if we're not chassidim, we can't understand or comment? You should then set access restrictions for this board.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1384 on: July 27, 2017, 11:25:52 PM »
Ah, so now if we're not chassidim, we can't understand or comment? You should then set access restrictions for this board.
You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.
To properly understand a Rebbe-Chosid relationship you need to learn years of chasidus.

If I start arguing about actuarial concepts that I don't understand it would also be meaningless.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1385 on: July 27, 2017, 11:27:30 PM »
You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.

Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".



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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1386 on: July 27, 2017, 11:28:43 PM »
Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".
Which chasidus exactly? I'm well aware that Satmar is an outlier here.
And where is the logical fallacy, that a Chosid doesn't have to believe their Rebbe is the Nosi/Manhig hador or that the Nosi/Manhig hador isn't the moshiach of the dor?
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Offline EJB

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1387 on: July 27, 2017, 11:31:18 PM »
You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.

Based on him making a statement, and backing it up with sources that do not support the statement. Why is my background relevant to someone making weak and unsopported points?

And just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, you say "And the nosi/manhig ha'dor is the moshiach of that dor." What do you mean by the moshiach of that dor?

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1388 on: July 27, 2017, 11:31:32 PM »
To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?
You claimed it wasn't simple because Dan and others said scholars don't understand it, well you claim scholars don't understand where the torah came from, you realize someone else would say to you that clearly there is a problem if many scholars can't even understand it. And it's not something you should be teaching your kids because it's too confusing. And look thousands of people that raise their kids like that go off the derech, do drugs, commit suicide etc.

I hope this makes sense.

My point simply is that just because some people turn out a certain way it 1. doesn't mean causation but rather correlation, and 2. Just because things may seam one way doesn't mean we don't do it. Such as with teaching any religion, just because X amount of people turn out a certain way doesn't mean that the thing itself is bad.
Imagine what the academics say about Gemara!
We should definitely not teach young kids Torah when so many are going OTD and there are such fine academics that have come out against it!
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1389 on: July 27, 2017, 11:34:22 PM »
Based on him making a statement, and backing it up with sources that do not support the statement. Why is my background relevant to someone making weak and unsopported points?

And just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, you say "And the nosi/manhig ha'dor is the moshiach of that dor." What do you mean by the moshiach of that dor?
This is like you finding a thread in a forum about black culture and then telling them their sources are all wrong and they don't believe what they say they beleive.
SI had basis in this discussion as a Belzer Chosid. You're telling me that I'm wrong and that he's wrong because of what exactly? You're not satisfied with the people he spoke to or the small amount of sources he gave on a whim on a forum?
You literally have zero basis on this topic.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1390 on: July 27, 2017, 11:35:01 PM »
Which chasidus exactly? I'm well aware that Satmar is an outlier here.
And where is the logical fallacy, that a Chosid doesn't have to believe their Rebbe is the Nosi/Manhig hador or that the Nosi/Manhig hador isn't the moshiach of the dor?
not Satmar
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1391 on: July 27, 2017, 11:35:49 PM »
not Satmar
Why is it a secret?
And again, which part of those 2 parts contains the alleged fallacy?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1392 on: July 27, 2017, 11:36:36 PM »
See my 5 step program to your left <--

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Offline EJB

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1393 on: July 27, 2017, 11:37:12 PM »
This is like you finding a thread in a forum about black culture and then telling them their sources are all wrong and they don't believe what they say they beleive.
You literally have zero basis on this topic.

Go right ahead - Why don't you support your arguments by quoting the declaration of independence. Despite the fact that the declaration of independence is completely irrelevant and doesn't support your points at all, since you are chabad then what you're saying about chassidism must be true. And I can't argue against that since I'm not chabad.

If that's how you think one should argue it's not worth my time getting into a debate with you. You're right - because you're chabad and I obviously can't read and understand hebrew.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1394 on: July 27, 2017, 11:39:37 PM »
Why is it a secret?
And again, which part of those 2 parts contains the alleged fallacy?
I prefer to remain anonymous.

I asked him if Chassidim think that their Rebbe is Mashiach, and if it's true that there's an inyan for a chassid to think his Rebbe is mashiach, and he replied "shtissim".
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".