Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 141876 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1395 on: July 27, 2017, 11:39:40 PM »
Go right ahead - Why don't you support your arguments by quoting the declaration of independence. Since you are chabad, despite the fact that the declaration of independence is completely irrelevant and doesn't support your points at all, since you are chabad then what you're saying about chassidism must be true. And I can't argue against that since I'm not chabad.

If that's how you think one should argue it's not worth my time getting into a debate with you. You're right - because you're chabad and I obviously can't read and understand hebrew.
A Belzer Chosid heard this from his Rebbe. And your argument against that is what exactly?
This isn't something that gets publicized and plastered on the walls unless you're a yellow flagger. It's an outcome of being a Chosid.
If you aren't a Chosid you won't comprehend it any better than I will comprehend black culture.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1396 on: July 27, 2017, 11:40:15 PM »
I prefer to remain anonymous.

I asked him if Chassidim think that their Rebbe is Mashiach, and if it's true that there's an inyan for a chassid to think his Rebbe is mashiach, and he replied "shtissim".
Without knowing the sect it doesn't really help anything.
But regardless, ask him the 2 part question please.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1397 on: July 27, 2017, 11:41:09 PM »
Imagine what the academics say about Gemara!
We should definitely not teach young kids Torah when so many are going OTD and there are such fine academics that have come out against it!
These are ridiculous arguments that have zero to do with what CBC wrote. They clearly broadcast your cognitive dissonance. Try to understand what he wrote for a few minutes before shooting from the hip
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1398 on: July 27, 2017, 11:42:05 PM »
Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".

One story of 1 Rebbe who said that him and his friends thought their praticular Rebbe was Moshiach, is not a proof to be able to make such a broad statement. Nor are a few random quotes in a few random sefarim

And there definitely was never a Chassidus that was so public about their Rebbe being Moshiach.

And why weren't the Chassidim of the Baal HaTanya singing "Yechi"?

This is the only subject where I hear you making claims that aren't solid. It's so un"Dan"like. :)
Btw, not at all meshichists, but I've noticed over the years that viznitz also has extreme elements that have a suspicious relationship with their Rebbe. - not chabbad style, but still troubling. 

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1399 on: July 27, 2017, 11:43:40 PM »
These are ridiculous arguments that have zero to do with what CBC wrote. They clearly broadcast your cognitive dissonance. Try to understand what he wrote for a few minutes before shooting from the hip
His argument: Because an academic doesn't know how to learn chasidus, you shouldn't teach chasidus because it can be misinterpreted too easily. And the proof is that some Lubavitchers waive yellow flags?

Since when do we base our teachings on what the academics say or how they twist Torah?

Nobody is going off the deep end because of Tanya or Derech Mitzvosecha.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1400 on: July 27, 2017, 11:44:51 PM »
Without knowing the sect it doesn't really help anything.
But regardless, ask him the 2 part question please.
I pmed you the sect.

I don't have a "call him up and ask a random question" relationship with him. If I meet him at a simcha I'll bl"n ask him.

I plan on davening in a chassidic shteeble tommorow, chassidim from all sects daven there, I plan on doing a survey, if they believe their Rebbe is Mashiach. (If they say "he could be", that means nothing, I would say the same thing about Rav Chaim Kanievsky.)
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1401 on: July 27, 2017, 11:45:37 PM »
Btw, not at all meshichists, but I've noticed over the years that viznitz also has extreme elements that have a suspicious relationship with their Rebbe. - not chabbad style, but still troubling. 
Suspicious  ::)

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.
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Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1402 on: July 27, 2017, 11:46:05 PM »
At @jj1000's request, I will weigh in. Though I am not sure who he might think I am defending. I am also definitely not an authority on Chassidus, nor am I an arbiter of who is or isn't Lubavitch (FWIW, I would challenge anyone who threw around the labels "Lubavitch" or "Chabad" claiming that someone is or someone isn't, to explain how he became the arbiter of this, or who is the arbiter he is relying upon).

I've taken hands off for a short while, as I wanted to see how different people would respond. I thank @Dan for putting together what seems to be a synopsis of this thread. I had originally intended to go back and read it on Tisha B'Av, and while I have actually started and gone through the first 10 pages (and found it interesting that @Lamdan who was alerted to his 770 post count, seems to have been deprecated to 749  ;) - sorry outsiders, you've got to be an insider to appreciate that one), this synopsis was helpful.

I will also admit, that I didn't view the video before posting, the link was sent to me, and I watched the first few minutes, saw that he's mostly reading quotes, so I figured that it can't be too bad, as I will never try to deny or try to twist anything the Rebbe wrote or said.

I have gone back and listened to the entire thing now, and read what has been posted since, and have the following takeaways.

CBC isn't doing any good to his arguments by stating something that is simply not there even in the video. We can discuss or argue about what is there, you aren't making yourself any more credible by stating something that isn't even there ("walk on water").

@Dan might not "see the good from the yellow flag movement" and said he may be called anti for that (as a side note, from the first 10 pages of this thread that I read, I've seen @Dan use that word several times, and was wondering how does the concept of "anti" jive with Lubavitch philosophy, and for that matter even "live and let live" in a certain context doesn't seem congruent with Lubavitch teachings). And while I have my personal opinions about the yellow flags, there are quite a few Chabad Houses (or mushrooms, as some might call them) around the world (especially in India, some in Latin America, and other places) that have done very good. I've never been to the Ritzaliya, but every time I am in Israel, I visit Herzliya. That Chabad House is pretty famous for the intensity of Yechi. FWIW It happens to actually be a "non-mushroom", and is lead by a tremendous תלמיד חכם, who has built an amazing קהילה, that could be the pride of many. His weekly shiur in Likutey Torah, as well as other shiurim and farbrengens are available on this YouTube channel.  Has anyone who has been to the Ritzaliya ever benefitted from Chabad of Herzliya? I would also encourage anyone to see the fruit of the yeshiva in Ramat Aviv, many of whom started off in Chabad Houses across India.

In a certain way, one might equate @Dan's statement about not seeing anything worthwhile but restaurants "from yellow flag unofficial chabad houses across the globe :P" (sorry, I am no expert on emoji's and aren't sure how to interpret that one), to how Dr. Dahan paraphrases the Rebbe in the video, saying that if one doesn't see the Rebbe, it is not because there was any real change with the Rebbe, but rather because the viewer is limited.

@Boruch999 is being intellectually honest, in admitting that he is "not at all educated in Toras Chasidus." and that "To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain" (sic). As I have pointed out several times, in order to be able to make an argument one way or the other, it would be beneficial to at least have a cursory knowledge of what Toras Hachassidus says. As for the "frighteningly Christian", it is very unfortunate that the lack of understanding of Chassidus (and possibly also of Christianity, I wouldn't know), combined with Dr. Dahan's interpretations, half-quotes, or even unanswered questions (such as the "question" he asks at 6:31 - which is simply and truthfully answered with this), would obviously make "the unitiated litvak" feel that way. However, rather than draw conclusions (as others might have), it would be more beneficial to look up the quotes he brings (not too hard these days when GIYF), see them in context, along with the מראי מקומות, before commenting. @Dan's response that "anything can be twisted" does little to contribute. Rather post a link to this where the quote Dr. Dahan brings can be seen in its full context, along with the footnotes.

My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC. I can easily see that attitude leading one to denounce or even decry Eliyohu Hanovi's actions on Har Hacarmel, and possibly even to call the Rambam an apikuros and denounce not only his philosophy and teachings, but even his actions and rulings (I just recently read that he was mevatel חזרת הש"ץ on Shabbos and YomTov, something that was only restored in Mitzraim some 350 years later!).

Despite pointing out @aygart, CBC seems to be somewhat guilty of the same, when Dr. Dahan mentions the machlokes about צמצום כפשוטו or צמצום לאו כפשוטו (regardless of where he takes that). Are you at all familiar with the concept or some of the sources regarding this?

It cannot be stressed enough, that the trap of labeling or name calling, results falling into the trap of answering questions that should not be answered, not because there is nothing to answer, but because they are relying on hollow labels, attaching assumptions to those, etc. etc.

Also, a point that cannot be left unmentioned, is the constant mixing up (not to mention homogenizing) of terms, labels, groups, etc. Not everyone that says Yechi bares a yellow flag, not everyone that bares a yellow flag and says Yechi doesn't go to the Ohel, not everyone that goes to the Ohel or says Yechi, or bares a yellow flag would be called a Lubavitcher (or Chabad) by those who have been using those titles here (or deemed non-Lubavitchers or non-Chabad). That is one of the reasons why it is totally pointless to discuss "sects" or "factions" but rather one could debate Torah and/or ideology.

Also, taking everything Dr. Dahan is quoting/saying and pinning it to "3 wackos that live in tzfas", is any less twisting than what Dr. Dahan or others might be doing. I am not saying that there aren't "wackos" out there, but most Chasidim or the Rebbe wouldn't be considered "wackos" by most people, yet would stand behind the quotes in proper context, even if they were to sound "out of line" to "the uninitiated litvak".

And while I agree with @Dan that rather than one listening to the way Dr. Dahan reads and interprets מצוות מינוי מלך as explain in דרך מצוותיך, one should go to a local person who is capable of learning the actual source with you, since we know that it might not happen, at the very least, [urlhttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=225]look up the sefer[/url] (and while you're at it you might want to learn some other fundamental concepts in brought in the rest of the sefer) , and/or some online shuirim rather than take the word of an academic with an agenda (are there any without?).

what about @henche?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1403 on: July 27, 2017, 11:46:09 PM »
Suspicious  ::)

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1404 on: July 27, 2017, 11:46:35 PM »
Suspicious  ::)

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1405 on: July 27, 2017, 11:47:04 PM »

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1406 on: July 27, 2017, 11:47:42 PM »
I pmed you the sect.

I don't have a "call him up and ask a random question" relationship with him. If I meet him at a simcha I'll bl"n ask him.

I plan on davening in a chassidic shteeble tommorow, chassidim from all sects daven there, I plan on doing a survey, if they believe their Rebbe is Mashiach. (If they say "he could be", that means nothing, I would say the same thing about Rav Chaim Kanievsky.)
1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1407 on: July 27, 2017, 11:48:18 PM »

I think I linked another​ weird viznitz thing somewhere in the forums over years..  gonna take some real digging to find

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1408 on: July 27, 2017, 11:51:00 PM »
And if you don't believe your Rebbe to be nosi/manhig hador, that there's something missing in your Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos. 

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1409 on: July 27, 2017, 11:51:22 PM »
what about @henche?
Must have been lost in the noise. Will try to look up and give a בן יחיד treatment.
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