Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 147823 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54108
  • Total likes: 2595
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1410 on: July 27, 2017, 11:51:47 PM »
I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos. 

This was one of the majot tainos tainos against chasidus.
Nothing new under the sun.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2502
  • Total likes: 86
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1411 on: July 27, 2017, 11:52:00 PM »
1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.
When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first point and second point are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:56:13 PM by Baruch »

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6192
  • Total likes: 1080
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1412 on: July 27, 2017, 11:54:37 PM »
Unfortunately Most Yidden Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.
FTFY
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 1898
  • Total likes: 68
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1413 on: July 27, 2017, 11:55:13 PM »
Just to clarify this on of the 3 viznitz and the smallest one

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2502
  • Total likes: 86
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1414 on: July 27, 2017, 11:55:20 PM »
I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos.
And the whole idea, that each Chasiddus can believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach (even though there's only 1 Moshiach [ben david]), reminds me of when Cee Lo Green's changed the words of 'Imagine' from "and no religion too", to "and all religions true".

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7185
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1415 on: July 27, 2017, 11:55:34 PM »
The whole concept of "nosi hador" is an invention. It makes no sense and is misleading. Wholly unesessary term.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6192
  • Total likes: 1080
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1416 on: July 27, 2017, 11:55:57 PM »
When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first sentence and second sentence are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.
+1.5
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54108
  • Total likes: 2595
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1417 on: July 27, 2017, 11:56:20 PM »
Just to clarify this on of the 3 viznitz and the smallest one
And the other viznitz don't believe their Rebbe is the manhig/nosi hador?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 10836
  • Total likes: 1008
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8015
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1418 on: July 27, 2017, 11:56:29 PM »
1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.
Honestly I don't think a survey about this subject would work. For many people this is a deeply personal thing and while they may believe it in their heart they don't talk about it in public. As is the case with many Lubavitchers.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54108
  • Total likes: 2595
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1419 on: July 27, 2017, 11:57:45 PM »
When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first point and second point are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.
The obvious question is how to define dor. Will there be yellow flaggers in 60 years from now?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2502
  • Total likes: 86
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1420 on: July 27, 2017, 11:58:36 PM »
This was one of the majot tainos tainos against chasidus.
Nothing new under the sun.
Huh? I read up extensively on the machlokes between Misnagdim and Chassidim, and I never once saw mention of this issue. Please elaborate. I may be misunderstanding you.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54108
  • Total likes: 2595
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1421 on: July 27, 2017, 11:58:52 PM »
Honestly I don't think a survey about this subject would work. For many people this is a deeply personal thing and while they may believe it in their heart they don't talk about it in public. As is the case with many Lubavitchers.
True.

While Baruch can say he was quoted "Shittisim", I've heard from other people that there are many from that sect that most certainly do believe that.
Whether they'll freely admit that to an outsider is another story though.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3826
  • Total likes: 385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1422 on: July 28, 2017, 12:00:44 AM »
Ah, I have a question.

Doesn't every dor have a nosi/manhig hador? 

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2502
  • Total likes: 86
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1423 on: July 28, 2017, 12:00:50 AM »
The obvious question is how to define dor. Will there be yellow flaggers in 60 years from now?
If the reason why you say "could be" is because you have a safeik how to define dor, then why did you say that if someone says "could be" on his live Rebbe he would be the same as the Lubavitch shita? That reasoning is so un"Dan"like. I would appreciate some intellectual honesty.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7185
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1424 on: July 28, 2017, 12:01:13 AM »
And the other viznitz don't believe their Rebbe is the manhig/nosi hador?
Noone but chabbad use term nosi hador.

Words matter. This term was coined to induce some kind of dynastic royalty attributed to the last couple of leaders.

No chassidim use this anywhere near in an extreme way as chabbad.