Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 144917 times)

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1440 on: July 28, 2017, 12:18:56 AM »
Believing your Rebbe to be Manhig/Nosi hador is part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

Chabad is so in there own world. I don't think chasidim in general believe that believing you Rabbi is highst authority is part of chasidus. It may be a natural thing.

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1441 on: July 28, 2017, 12:19:11 AM »
New shaila:

Can a kohen or levi be a rebbe?  Because they can't be moshiach.

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1442 on: July 28, 2017, 12:19:58 AM »
Chabad is so in there own world. I don't think chasidim in general believe that believing you Rabbi is highst authority is part of chasidus. It may be a natural thing.


I don't know if that's correct or not, but I don't think it's controversial that chabad are the real chassidim (except among other chassidim).

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1443 on: July 28, 2017, 12:20:05 AM »
I assume you or some of your friends want to commit suicide if they would know they get into gan eiden.
I've been in the Litveshe world for over 30 years and never heard this idea come up. It seems like you met a weird guy once.

יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה, מכל חיי העולם הבא
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1444 on: July 28, 2017, 12:21:06 AM »
New shaila:

Can a kohen or levi be a rebbe?  Because they can't be moshiach.
This whole Rebbe/Moshiach business is one sect and one maybe 2 doros old. We all know this.
There were many Rebbes who were Kohanim. But you don't have to bring a proof to something that is an obvious fact.
I think mgarfin is right
Chabad is so in there own world. I don't think chasidim in general believe that believing you Rabbi is highst authority is part of chasidus. It may be a natural thing.
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1445 on: July 28, 2017, 12:21:38 AM »
Chabad is so in there own world. I don't think chasidim in general believe that believing you Rabbi is highst authority is part of chasidus. It may be a natural thing.
As I've said before, it's a natural outcome in Chabad as well as in other Chassidus. It's not something that's openly stated anywhere, it's completely toluy b'hergesh.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1446 on: July 28, 2017, 12:22:46 AM »
This whole Rebbe/Moshiach business is one sect and one maybe 2 doros old. We all know this.
Most people don't care who Moshiach is or even that he should come today, so it's not something on their mind.

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1447 on: July 28, 2017, 12:23:29 AM »
Just to give you a better night..

Actually, since tov lo lodom shelo nivra yoser mishenivra, it is actually very logical to want to die asap as long as gan Eden is guaranteed!


What will really blow your mind is that Lubavitchers don't even care about Gan Eden ;)
Even though current discussion is regarding prohibitions, rather than commandments, being the eve of יא ניסן brings to mind the following (which discusses that a Jew doesn't follow mitzvos because of any outcome):

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm

Just found the following English translation: https://therealshliach.blogspot.com/2008/04/complete-byom-ashtei-assar-5731.html or English video lesson available here.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1448 on: July 28, 2017, 12:26:03 AM »
What will really blow your mind is that Lubavitchers don't even care about Gan Eden ;)
It's a befeirishe 8th day. Mir zuchin nisht dayn olam haba, mir zuchin nisht dayn gan eden.

(somewhere on ddf, someone said that the Baal HaTanya was overheard saying that)
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1449 on: July 28, 2017, 12:27:52 AM »
As I've said before, it's a natural outcome in Chabad as well as in other Chassidus. It's not something that's openly stated anywhere, it's completely toluy b'hergesh.
But the fact is that the last years of the Rebbe, Chabad did publicly declare and obsess over the Rebbe being Moshiach. So why compare what Chabad did to other Chassidusin?

When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1450 on: July 28, 2017, 12:28:09 AM »
It's a befeirishe 8th day. Mir zuchin nisht dayn olam haba, mir zuchin nisht dayn gan eden.

(somewhere on ddf, someone said that the Baal HaTanya was overheard saying that)
Sif ches of the awesome maimor: http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1451 on: July 28, 2017, 12:31:17 AM »
But the fact is that the last years of the Rebbe, Chabad did publicly declare and obsess over the Rebbe being Moshiach. So why compare what Chabad did to other Chassidusin, when it's just plain not true?
Chassidim believed at the time that saying Yechi would bring Moshiach. That publicized something that was always an essential part or natural outcome, albeit private part, of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
Alas, it didn't happen and Yechi is very rare today outside of 770s basement, Tzfas, and the small handful of mushroom/yellow flag chabad houses. In fact most chabad houses and yeshivas will toss you out for saying yechi today, but YMMV.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1452 on: July 28, 2017, 12:32:56 AM »
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.

So you are repeating the error of 235 years ago, despite the hindsight that 1) that error lead to messira and שפיכות דמים כפשוטו, and 2) that despite what seems questionable to you on the surface, the conundrum is out there that the same people whose ideology you question, have proven to be otherwise מדקדק במצוות and furthermore מהדר במצוות?

You make claims about the "outside view" despite clearly having a distorted view, homogenizing ingredients while making one big melange out of it. And with that view anyone should feel justified to question Chassidus?

Well, for many years the Rebbe didn't allow public talk about the subject, as a misunderstanding of (or premature introduction to) the subject would alienate people, resulting in them not learning Chassidus. Sometime around תנש״א that changed, and the Rebbe allowed public discussion of the topic, and later encouraged it. I don't know why the change, but I could speculate.

As a side note, regardless of the reasoning for the change, I can assure you that there were chassidim who didn't like it. Just like there were Chassidim that didn't like it when the Rebbe instructed to go out to Times Square and put on tefillin with Jews, and there were those who were "embarrassed" when Gershon Ber Jacobson printed a picture of the Rebbe motioning to the crowd (or to someone specific) to whistle, in the Algemeiner Journal. Rest assured, none of this has anything to do with any internal fights (like the one @jj1000 and @Dan were alluding to. Those are just same old centuries long fights over power, prestige or anything of the sort. Nothing ideological about them.

All of that not withstanding, despite the Rebbe's quotes (which CBC, yourself, and others see as more controversial, to say the least) being out there in the open for many years (long before תנש״א), true gedolei Yisroel from a wide variety of backgrounds came to the Rebbe, respected the Rebbe, sought his advice, etc etc.  So now, after so many years, people who don't purport to be gedolei Yisroel, should feel that they have a valid challenge on Lubavitch or the Rebbe (which are inseparable)? Are you smarter, or more knowledgeable than those gedolei Yisroel that actually communicated with the Rebbe?

Go back to the quote I posted from the Novomisker in the other thread!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:44:04 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1453 on: July 28, 2017, 12:34:26 AM »
Chassidim believed at the time that saying Yechi would bring Moshiach. That publicized something that was always an essential part or natural outcome, albeit private part, of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
Alas, it didn't happen and Yechi is very rare today outside of 770s basement, Tzfas, and the small handful of mushroom/yellow flag chabad houses.
I really think you are projecting the Lubavitch (of recent history) view of the chassid/Rebbe relationship on all chassidusin. But we're going in circles here.

I hope it's true that most Chabadskers today don't think the Rebbe is Moshiach. (But as JJ1000 said, thousands would admit they think that way after a L'chaim to many.)
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1454 on: July 28, 2017, 12:37:17 AM »
So you are repeating the error of 235 years ago
Why do Chassidim think that Misnagdim of today think the Ga'on made an error? We absolutely don't!

When the Novaminsker Rebbe wrote that in Yeshurun, there was major backlash from the Litveshe Gedolim.
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".