Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146261 times)

Online whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2786
  • Total likes: 389
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2012, 07:38:21 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach?
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.

Offline mclovin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2291
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:31 PM »
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.
i didnt call anybody anything im just trying to understand the logic of it. i never heard that a dead person could be mashiach but if its true- why the rebbe, even for a lubavitcher. he was not the greatest person to ever live. (i am not saying he was not a great person)

Offline bubbles

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 5051
  • Total likes: 14
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 67
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:42 PM »
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.

I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chadssidish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:50:58 PM by bubbles »

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20563
  • Total likes: 126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...

I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).
PGF24BMGS

Online whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2786
  • Total likes: 389
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chaddish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
I have no problem with your question.
If you want the "simple" answer:
I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

Offline mclovin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2291
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2012, 08:04:28 PM »
I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20563
  • Total likes: 126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2012, 08:15:15 PM »
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?

I advise you to study first, then ask questions.
PGF24BMGS

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 279
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2012, 08:21:52 PM »
while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8662
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2012, 08:23:54 PM »
I advise you to study first, then ask questions.

I always had the same question.

It would be nice to get an answer.

Without all the studies though.

Online whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2786
  • Total likes: 389
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2012, 08:29:27 PM »
As Dan said:
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship
I hope this doesn't sound too condescending but I'm afraid if you're not a chossid you probably wont "get it"...

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8662
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2012, 08:34:26 PM »
As Dan said:I hope this doesn't sound too condescending but I'm afraid if you're not a chossid you probably wont "get it"...

I was hoping on a better answer, but if this is what it is, well so be it....

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 279
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2012, 08:35:34 PM »
why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach and based on age i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship so he definintely doesnt know what that is witch is a tragic outcome of this nonesense that they never appointed another rebbe

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20563
  • Total likes: 126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2012, 08:36:18 PM »
I always had the same question.

It would be nice to get an answer.

Without all the studies though.

What is moshiach is beyond the scope of this thread.
PGF24BMGS

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8662
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2012, 08:43:06 PM »
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20563
  • Total likes: 126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2012, 08:49:22 PM »
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.

I'm Chabad, and I have the same questions as you.
PGF24BMGS