Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 141683 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2012, 08:55:26 PM »
I guess its not that of stupid question after all.

How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2012, 09:00:08 PM »
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing
"embarassed by the whole moshiach thing"
Give me a break.  The whole purpose of the Chabad movement today is to bring the Rebbe's vision to fruition which is to bring on the revelation of mashiach.

"sort of led them on"
Something leads me to believe you would never dare disrespect a litvisher gadol.

"and now it has become more of a cult"
The only cult are the nutty aforementioned tzfatim who dance around 770 and Israel all day as that's more exciting to them than actually learning torah or putting tefilin on people as the Rebbe would have told them to do and stop wasting their time. 
Calling chabad a cult shows on your own ignorance, hate, and indoctrinated bias.

"i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship"
Speak for yourself please.  Through doing what the Rebbe wanted his chassidim to do and learning your Rebbe's chassidus you can have a stronger relationship than someone who went to every single farbrengen, and those who went to every single farbrengen and sees bochurim in yeshiva today will often say the same thing.

"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.

Personally, again, I don't care who is mashiach.  And 99.9% of lubavitchers out there just want mashiach to come regardless of who it is
.
But to call the belief that the Rebbe could be mashiach a cult or avodah zarah is quite frankly ignorant and is probably said by the same type of people who cursed Chabad out for creating the kiruv movement before deciding to pretend that they in fact came up with the very idea.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 09:03:54 PM by Dan »
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2012, 09:06:38 PM »
I guess its not that of stupid question after all.

How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.

It's not a stupid question, but the solution you propose isn't a silver bullet either (though some would say that's exactly what already happened in Lubavitch, not that I agree). Dan's last post (not just the part that he responded to you) helps explain why it isn't the best solution.

@asd, your comments are extremely distasteful and disrespectful. The OP is looking to have a discussion, if you want to spew venom and vitriol please start your own thread.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2012, 09:08:41 PM »
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
"embarassed by the whole moshiach thing"
Give me a break.  The whole purpose of the Chabad movement today is to bring the Rebbe's vision to fruition which is to bring on the revelation of mashiach.

"sort of led them on"
Something leads me to believe you would never dare disrespect a litvisher gadol.

"and now it has become more of a cult"
The only cult are the nutty aforementioned tzfatim who dance around 770 and Israel all day as that's more exciting to them than actually learning torah or putting tefilin on people as the Rebbe would have told them to do and stop wasting their time. 
Calling chabad a cult shows on your own ignorance, hate, and indoctrinated bias.

"i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship"
Speak for yourself please.  Through doing what the Rebbe wanted his chassidim to do and learning your Rebbe's chassidus you can have a stronger relationship than someone who went to every single farbrengen, and those who went to every single farbrengen and sees bochurim in yeshiva today will often say the same thing.

"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.

Personally, again, I don't care who is mashiach.  And 99.9% of lubavitchers out there just want mashiach to come regardless of who it is
.
But to call the belief that the Rebbe could be mashiach a cult or avodah zarah is quite frankly ignorant and is probably said by the same type of people who cursed Chabad out for creating the kiruv movement before deciding to pretend that they in fact came up with the very idea.
I am loving the passion but as whYME suggested before can we please just keep to answering halachic questions. If anyone in this thread actually wants to accomplish anything let us have an orderly discussion of weather chabad is going against halacha or not. That is really the only thing that matters. Either its wrong or not because if its not wrong then to ask someone to justify a personal feeling that is inline with halacha is pointless and silly IMO.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2012, 09:42:47 PM »
I was hoping on a better answer, but if this is what it is, well so be it....

I thought you were an honorary chabadnik
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2012, 09:48:23 PM »
I thought you were an honorary chabadnik
He was thinking of getting a membership, but ditched the idea when Dan forgot to bring the signup papers to the DO last April ;)

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2012, 10:09:37 PM »
cbs, when you say that most believe #2, are you saying the he must be moshiach or that he could be? when speaking to a chabad friend of mine, he told me he believes the rebbe was the most qualified. in his opinion, but was open to the idea that it might be someone else
i meant that Lubavitchers say he is for the reason that is being stated around here, that A. he's our Rebbe and we (as in this generation) had/have a very special connection which is hard to be explained if someone is not Lubavitch (even though i can try to explain but some will take it in the wrong way, so therefore i wont.) and B. in our eyes he fits the category the best. - but i dont want to discuss this either like AsherO said that "What is Moshiach is beyond this thread" and i dont want to get into the discussion of who is Moshiach etc..because thats not the point and it will never end either (no offense but its a fact, if you're not Lubavitch you wont agree with any reason i give for the Rebbe being Moshiach)
The point of my Post was to clarify the situation for the OP that he should get a clearer picture of the "politics" that are in Chabad these days, and shouldnt take it in a wrong way, because as Dan said that many Chabad houses that do say Yechi etc... turns people down from chabad - even though it may bring some people closer but those people only know of Chabad as "the rebbe is Moshiach" and thats it (because thats all they're taught)
i personally have a few stories of different people that when i wanted to put Teffilin on them they started cursing out Chabad and giving all sorts of names because they got turned away from the Meshichistim. so i dont want the OP to think that way, so i try clarifying it.

He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
your post is exactly what we all need to start a massive argument - i think if you have an opinion on the "Situation" - NOT who is Moshiach - than please share otherwise it's useless to say what you said cuz it sounds as if you're trying to convince people here that and someone that doesnt believe it wont get convinced - since to believe such a thing you have to come to it on your own by having a connection to the Rebbe etc... any Jo-shmo in the street wont get it.

Thanks for your detailed response CBS! I'll read through it again when I have more time, and post some follow up questions.
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss.
Anytime, as long as we're all friends! (especially since you helped pack russian food at tzemach tzdek on Lee rd. ;) )

Not necessarily does reuvens' rosh yeshiva "hate" lubavitch. I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah...
i personally will have to disagree with you on that. it sounds to me that he has some sort of hate or bad eye towards Chabad in general and i know more than a few people that went to learn in yeshivos in israel and came out disliking chabad specifically because their rav told them they shouldnt go there and some even say they cursed out Chabad.
i never understood those Rabbis and i think its 100% wrong what they are doing (not because im Chabad) but because its another jew and just because he disagrees (or jealous) with some things Chabad says it doesnt mean chabad is bad people!

while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing
Can you please elaborate on what you said? what do you mean that they feel embarrassed...? like what did they beleive exactly b4 that is diff now? do u mean they said Yechi b4 but now they will never?
Every Chabad Chossid between '92 and '94 said Yechi - becuase the rebbe wasnt feeling well and as i stated in previous posts that they all believed that he is Moshiach.

why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach and based on age i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship so he definintely doesnt know what that is witch is a tragic outcome of this nonesense that they never appointed another rebbe
i may be wrong here, but i think that the connection with the Chassidim to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and how people looked (and respected) him, was and still is, totally different than other chassidim to their Rebbes. and you may say that since im Chabad im saying this, but not true. if you look at many other Chassidim and even other rebbes - forget frum people even non religious people (incl. many prime ministers of israel) Respected the Rebbe in such a way that no other Rebbe had.
never mind that you wont find a Chabad chossid ask a bracha from a diff rebbe, but you forsure do see many and i mean many other chassidim that asked and still ask brachos from the Lubavitcher rebbe!
so there is something there.....

and as for what u say about that "dan never HAD a relationship..." - here is where you misunderstood MAJORLY.
After '94 the connection between the Chassidim didnt lessen any more. just because there is a physical concealment it doesnt mean anything else is different. and if you would learn Chassidus (especially תורת מנחם חלק א) you will see how the rebbe discusses the Connection to a rebbe after his Passing - he was referring to the previous Rebbe.
and besides what do u know about Dan's hiskashrus?!

EDIT: i bolded the part i fgt to mention. which makes you sound pretty absurd when saying such a thing! the reason you say this, is because you dont know who the Lubavitcher rebbe is/was. and if you would only know, then you would understand why noone was appointed a new Rebbe because there is noone in the world now that can qualify and be at the same standard as the Lubavitcher Rebbe (no offense to any other Rebbe). and in general all the Chabad rebbeim were all from one house (beis harav) and just to point out that the rebbe had no kids either.

Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
+100

Quote from: Dan
"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.
im not so sure that they do.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 12:04:56 AM by Cbs »

Offline SGF

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2012, 10:11:37 PM »
How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.
i hope everybody wants moshiach to come not only lubavitchers

Offline Mocha

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2012, 10:18:54 PM »
i hope everybody wants moshiach to come not only lubavitchers
Then we can have one big DO  ;)

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2012, 10:38:02 PM »
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

thats only a reason why you would want him to be mashiach. but earlier generations were much greater than him. so why assume that he is the mashiach and treat him as such. i find that to be very insulting to previous generations

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2012, 10:43:34 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming anything or that anyone is mashiach.  But the concept of mashaich is that he is the nasi of that particular generation.  As Chabad chassidim we believe the Rebbe to the be nasi of our generation.

I'll be more than happy with whomever mashiach is.  Frankly it doesn't really matter to me who he is.
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2012, 10:47:43 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming anything or that anyone is mashiach.  But the concept of mashaich is that he is the nasi of that particular generation.  As Chabad chassidim we believe the Rebbe to the be nasi of our generation.

I'll be more than happy with whomever mashiach is.  Frankly it doesn't really matter to me who he is.
ok but what is considered that generation. after all he was niftar

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2012, 10:52:18 PM »
ok but what is considered that generation. after all he was niftar
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2012, 10:55:13 PM »
im sorry for touching a raw nerve but chabad prides itself for being openminded and you should see the oppinion that the majority of torah jews hold so may i ask why on the topic that is the core of chabad are you so closeminded  have you ever serieously considered the logic of those who disagree whith you and if you did i will respect that as you guys (i mean the main contributors to this site and for that i thank you)are clearly very intelligent.

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2012, 11:04:26 PM »
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
a valid answer