Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 432119 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 70317
  • Total likes: 19557
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2012, 11:06:24 PM »
im sorry for touching a raw nerve but chabad prides itself for being openminded and you should see the oppinion that the majority of torah jews hold so may i ask why on the topic that is the core of chabad are you so closeminded  have you ever serieously considered the logic of those who disagree whith you and if you did i will respect that as you guys (i mean the main contributors to this site and for that i thank you)are clearly very intelligent.

The only one being close-minded here is you.

What do you want me to say?  That the Rabbe can't possibly be mashiach? That Rav, the Rashbi, the Midrash/B"R, the Sdei Chemed, and the Abarbenel among many others were heretical and modern anti-chabad spewing rabbis know better. 

Or should Chabad have stopped being makarev yidden and putting tefilin on yidden back in the 50's because at the time most torah jews were aghast at doing so and denouncing it?  Never mind that they all came around after to claim they themselves started the movement.

Or should Chasidism itself have admitted to being wrong back from the times of the Baal Shem Tov and onward when misnagdim were ready to physically harm, mosar to the government, and even kill chassidim, lest their ways teach all jews to be "heretical?"

This is nothing but a long standing tradition of anti-chasidic/chabad rhetoric that has been around for hundreds of years and has no basis in halacha.

We're going in circles here.  Nobody is going to convince anybody out of what they believe. I don't think I have much else to add to this subject.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:09:55 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2012, 11:10:24 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 14039
  • Total likes: 7336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
of course he has. Hence quoting many famous jewish authorities who's view is inline with the chabad belief. The question is if you have done research or your blindly following your feelings. (not to mention this is no where in the vicinity of core chabad beliefs. You are clearly the misinformed one here)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:23:37 PM by jj1000 »
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline arie

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2010
  • Posts: 259
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:17 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
He has no obligation to 'seriously consider' other shita's. Chabad has beed been around for some time already and had great men in charge. As long as he is following his tradition that he was brought up in and he is following the Shulchan Aruch, he doesn't have to seriously consider anything else, the same way you dont have to seriously consider becoming a Satmar, Belz Chosid, or a Mizrachi.

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2012, 11:23:15 PM »
there has never been in history a movement like chabbad i dont have to research i have history and mesorah on my side you are treading on dangerous waters it is your obligation to be certian you arent being brainwashed

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2012, 11:23:28 PM »
For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.


gif image hosting


« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:33:34 PM by Avid Reader »

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3386
  • Total likes: 1246
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2012, 11:31:22 PM »
asd your posts remind me of this:

(in other words if you add some punctuation I might understand what you're saying)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 70317
  • Total likes: 19557
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2012, 11:35:01 PM »
jewda, that's the most vile and hateful link I've ever seen posted on DDF, and frankly it deserves an apology.

If we can't have this conversation with respect and ahavas yisroel I will lock this up for good and add it to the banned topics list.  As for me I believe I've already said all I need to say and have nothing further to add other than everyone will believe exactly what they have already been programmed to believe.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 70317
  • Total likes: 19557
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2012, 11:41:32 PM »
There was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...
One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cbs

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 4483
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Programs: HHonors Gold, Delta Diamond Medallion, AA Platinum Pro
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2012, 11:50:32 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
do u ever consider other worldly cultures and ways of life? no? why not?
my point is that you were brought up a certain way and Chabad was brought up a certain way. to say that someone else should consider your way is like - halevai a christian saying you should consider the way of J - (not exactly but you get my point)
and i never try convincing anyone that they should become Chabad in way shape or form. i think bottom line is that its the way you were brought up, and no-one can get convinced otherwise unless they're searching for something else. so no use in arguing about this anymore. it is what it is.
and btw i edited my previous big post so because i forgot to mention something u said - look for the caps edit

as for Jewda: i see now that dan posted but i wanted to say the exact same thing, and just let you now that out off all the curses the Rebbe got in public etc... the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107). and for someone - especially a big guy like him that has many followers - to say such a thing in public against another jew, especially a big Rebbe that is world renowned and respected by majority of the world, i call such a person a Rashah. especially when he considered himself a big gadol.

Offline Side incomer

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3507
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2012, 11:59:58 PM »
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
Side income is the most solid income... בדוק ומנוסה

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2012, 12:02:11 AM »
btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...

One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.


I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07


Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2012, 12:03:16 AM »
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 70317
  • Total likes: 19557
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2012, 12:03:30 AM »
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »
the abilty to be is something all frum yidden believe about all gedolim

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 70317
  • Total likes: 19557
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2012, 12:06:43 AM »
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.
Not even remotely comparable.  You are further displaying your ignorance.
The problem with shabsai tzvi and his followers who violated mitzvahs and ate on tisha b'av for example is the same problem we have with yashka as is tackled by R' Schochet:

"7. Rabbi Keller identifies the Messianists' belief that the resurrected
   Rebbe will be Moshiach with, lehavdil, Christianity.  This obscene analogy
   merely displays ignorance of both Judaism and, lehavdil, Christianity.

   Unlike the Meshichists, Christians (as well as the Sabbateans) believe
   that their savior was already the Messiah in actu, and that the Messianic
   redemption is already an established fact, though yet to move to a new
   stage with the "second coming." This is not a matter of semantics but
   fraught with practical implications: that belief caused them to abrogate
   Torah and mitzvot (even as the Sabbateans, too, changed Halachah because
   of their belief).

   There is not a single case of any Meshichists abrogating or changing a
   single mitzvah or aspect of Halachah! In fact, they continuously urge
   greater and more punctilious observance of Torah and mitzvot to hasten
   the redemption.

   More specifically: is it possible for a resurrected tzadik to be
   Moshiach? According to Sanhedrin 98b most definitely yes! Is that view
   "normative Judaism"? It is certainly not the normative Jewish perception
   of Moshiach throughout the ages. By the same token, however, it does
   not violate normative Judaism or valid Halachah one iota. The Almighty
   can appoint anyone He chooses to be Moshiach, whether he be - to use the
   Gemara's expression - "of the living or of the (presently) dead".

   Indeed, the Meshichists are not even original. Aside of the Gemara and
   the authorities that quote it (e.g., Abarbanel), no less an authority
   than R. Menachem Nachum of Czernobyl (author of Me'or Einayim) stated
   his conviction that the resurre cted Baal Shem Tov will be Moshiach
   (see Sefer Baal Shem Tov, Me'irat Einayim, par. 23).

   The Meshichists can and must be criticized for converting a (legitimate)
   personal belief and conviction into a categorical imperative. There is
   no objective proof that their perception of tzadik hador or nassi hador
   supersedes different perceptions by others. Their public claims and
   activities, therefore, are a harmful aberration and arrogant triumphalism."
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cbs

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 4483
  • Total likes: 20
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Programs: HHonors Gold, Delta Diamond Medallion, AA Platinum Pro
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2012, 12:10:46 AM »
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.
please quote who you're talking to since there is a lot of discussions going on at once.

shabtai tzvi gave false prophecies and claimed himself as Moshiach
are you comparing shabtai tzvi to the Lubavitcher Rebbe?!

i'm sorry now i think you are just spitting things out which makes no sense (not that youre other posts were diff) to back up someone who cursed out chabad

EDIT: woops dan i just saw your post! no red warning sign came up

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2012, 12:11:54 AM »
like i heard from a big posek almost any shittah you will find somewhere in the all incompasing torah that is why real mesorah is so greatly important

Offline bestwatchman

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 300
  • Total likes: 55
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2012, 12:12:14 AM »
(especially since you helped pack russian food at tzemach tzdek on Lee rd. ;) )


I believe you meant zemach zedek :) http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18516&alias=farbrengen-guest-rebbetzin-kazen


you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
Would you be willing to share with us what that shita is?

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 297
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2012, 12:14:33 AM »
back to my point if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to publicize it the comparison wasnt essentail for the argument