Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146896 times)

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:33 PM »
Sorry, too many flaws in the logic (at least as presented here) for me to accept that.

I don't mean any disrespect to R' Wasserman Tatzal, but the following remains in question:

1. What happens before the first taavah a person chooses, do they then have clarity/purity? If yes, how could they make that first wrong choice and choose the taava?
2. What's the halachic proof (he cites a midrash), why don't the Rambam or any of the Jewish philosophers (chokrim) present it this way?
3. The midrash is referring to the almighty as the creator of the world, but what about the vastness of Hashem that transcends that, how can we prove that part?
4. The source midrash makes no mention of taavos, or the reason why the person wouldn't have seen it on his own, or what R' Akiva would indeed accomplish by telling him this if his intellectual clarity was indeed compromised.

This is surely not the classical approach to b'chira, but it's a nice perspective nevertheless, ושבעים פנים לתורה.
to be honest, i don't understand fully what your objections are. but in truth i think it's too deep an inyan to discuss with a keyboard (at least for me), i would need to use my mouth. btw, it's presented much clearer in the sefer itself. thanx for taking the time to read and anylize it.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is
Please as AsherO suggested state a direct question, and it will be answered... I am beyond confused as to what you are asking. if you look at you posts from yesterday I was answering exactly that. Now you are changing the wording of the question, its just a bit frustrating as I am sure you can understand... #Ihatesyntax
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2012, 02:21:54 PM »
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is

These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

#Ihatesyntax

#ilovesyntax
#syntaxisempowering
#ihatesyntaxabuse
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach.
See I think the real question here is why live your life wondering and attacking what the other person thinks or believes.
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.

Today! :D
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2012, 02:27:24 PM »
#ilovesyntax
#syntaxisempowering
#ihatesyntaxabuse
Granted, and Thank you because the truth is I LOVE syntax. As seen earlier in this thread. AsherO you never cease to amaze :)
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2012, 02:28:15 PM »
Today! :D
a la "Do teshuva one day before you die"
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2012, 02:32:06 PM »
1. The point of the question is whether we'll accept R' Shach as moshiach? That wasn't the OP's question.
as i understood the OP (jewda) he was saying/asking that many lubavitchers would not accept rav shach zt"l because they did not like him, meaning even if he fufilled all the technical obligations that are needed to be mashiach.
2. We can't discuss who is (potentially) moshiach before we defined what he (and the concept) is, zil gmor.
im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could be
The answer to the question about Shach appearing as Moshiach was answered by Dan, and I share his sentiments. If you want to know Cbs' take on the matter, ask him directly to address the question. If you feel there was a part of the question that wasn't answered, clarify what that is and people could address that.
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
and as for cbs i was being mocheh for kovod torah and he is welcome to answer back

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

i accepted his answer (and i posted that) and my point wasnt that the avos should be mashiach but that i never knew a dead person could be mashiach but if so why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2012, 02:46:17 PM »
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2012, 02:52:40 PM »
Granted, and Thank you because the truth is I LOVE syntax. As seen earlier in this thread. AsherO you never cease to amaze :)

Awww  :-[

a la "Do teshuva one day before you die"

No, a la it's really so wonderful and desirable, I wannit now!

@McLovin

1. Jewda isn't the OP, Reuven is.
2. Your questions were all addressed.
3, your contradict yourself as follows:
im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could bei
then
why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe

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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2012, 02:54:54 PM »
No, a la it's really so wonderful and desirable, I wannit now!
Fair enough, but either way the answer is today.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2012, 02:55:40 PM »
Fair enough, but either way the answer is today.

Now! :D
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Offline JEWDA

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #163 on: February 07, 2012, 03:04:40 PM »
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #164 on: February 07, 2012, 03:05:43 PM »
You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)

I don't think this guy deserves us taking him seriously.
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