Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146922 times)

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #225 on: February 07, 2012, 11:14:03 PM »
?? what makes you think so? i saay like i said above in this post, that if (in inyan geredt)he is Moshiach than obviously i will accept it. i just personally think that, that if wont happen, besides for the fact that he doesnt qualify halachakly. (and pls save your breath and dont tell me the Rebbe doesnt qualify halachikly because that simply isnt true)
 
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
and as for your last line, not sure if it was directed at me but i never suggested anything like that.

 i never stated my opinion on who is moshiach and who i would accept. the only thing i said that he acted in the ways of a rasha by saying what he said (especially about a tzadik). and the only thing you can imply from here which is what i believe, that someone that falls into the category of saying something like a rasha would say than he cant be Moshiach. - but i never said if he was moshiach i wouldnt accept, on the contrary i would (why wouldnt anyone?) but practically speaking its irrelevant if i would or wouldn't.

why was it a stupid thing to say, and why was it hypocritical??
you said bad things about a gadol for saying bad things about a gadol. self explanatory

you are saying i accused him as if i need to bring proof of what he did. its clear from all the proofs brought here on the forum (texts/videos - and if u cant find them google them) and much more proof that it was sinas chinum so im just stating a fact.
secondly whats worng with mentioning something in public about someone that said  something horrible about my rebbe - IN PUBLIC
and as for kovod hatora, i will agree with you that he was way more learned then me and knew/learned a lot of torah and but that doesnt change facts of life!
when i said accused him of sinas chinum i was actually going on dan. but even so it seems everyone agrees r shach was a gadol even if they have problems with what he said about the rebbe, if so why is it sinas chinum. he felt there were problems (im obviously not expecting you to agree to them) and that is why he said what he said. it wasnt baseless hatred at least according to his own opinion. and as for if its wrong to mention in public, still might be lashon hora, i dont know. and if u agree he was greater than us how can u call him a rasha and not feel that is not a lack of kovod torah

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #226 on: February 07, 2012, 11:31:53 PM »
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
This thread is getting so lame. If Yashka rebuilt the temple etc (going according to your logic that it was possible for him to be mashiach). I would and every Jew would follow him as moshiach. I don't even understand what it means not to follow mashiach. If moshiach is here its here...

the point was we dont care what anyone would say about him based on our confidence in his leadership and our security in our hashkafos
I remember when RAV shach was niftar the local chabad yeshiva where I was living made a huge party that night.
Seemingly someone cared...

Not to mention I would hope a mentch would admit when someone answers their question to admit it was a valid answer.
like i heard from a big posek almost any shittah you will find somewhere in the all incompasing torah that is why real mesorah is so greatly important

The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #227 on: February 07, 2012, 11:34:52 PM »
This thread is getting so lame. If Yashka rebuilt the temple etc (going according to your logic that it was possible for him to be mashiach). I would and every Jew would follow him as moshiach. I don't even understand what it means not to follow mashiach. If moshiach is here its here...
not necessarily.  think of all the times klal yisroel did something wrong. they witnessed a lot of very big miracles from hashem and yet it didnt stop them from turning away. so yes if he came back and for some reason i knew it had to be true i would follow him (if i didnt just lose my mind instead). but we dont know how it will work when mashiach comes, so all i can say is at this point i would not accept him

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #228 on: February 07, 2012, 11:36:26 PM »
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
im not gonna yell at you for that comparison but im just gonna say that its not really comparable. and i would never say if hitler ym"s was moshiach bec that would never happen, so its not a matter of accepting him or not. - and if you want to say "IF" he was moshiach than how can you not accept him, if thats who Hashem made Moshiach?

Quote
and as for your last line, not sure if it was directed at me but i never suggested anything like that
it wasnt directed at you, it was to the public, that may say that. cuz i had a feeling someone would answer me that so i answered it b4 someone asked.

Quote
you said bad things about a gadol for saying bad things about a gadol. self explanatory
when i said accused him of sinas chinum i was actually going on dan. but even so it seems everyone agrees r shach was a gadol even if they have problems with what he said about the rebbe, if so why is it sinas chinum. he felt there were problems (im obviously not expecting you to agree to them) and that is why he said what he said. it wasnt baseless hatred at least according to his own opinion. and as for if its wrong to mention in public, still might be lashon hora, i dont know.
i said what he did. i didnt make anything up. ---Example: i never said that he stole money or didnt keep shabbos etc... that would be saying bad things. but if someone did something wrong than im not adding to the fact that he did it by saying he did it.

why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
 
Quote
and if u agree he was greater than us how can u call him a rasha and not feel that is not a lack of kovod torah
more learned doesn't equal greater always.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #229 on: February 07, 2012, 11:38:55 PM »
not necessarily.  think of all the times klal yisroel did something wrong. they witnessed a lot of very big miracles from hashem and yet it didnt stop them from turning away. so yes if he came back and for some reason i knew it had to be true i would follow him (if i didnt just lose my mind instead). but we dont know how it will work when mashiach comes, so all i can say is at this point i would not accept him
The Ignorance is driving me crazy. You aren't even reading the words you are writing. Obviously at this point you would not accept him because he didn't fulfill the requirements to be moshiach vaday as AsherO made a link to the rambam before.
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #230 on: February 07, 2012, 11:43:05 PM »
The Ignorance is driving me crazy. You aren't even reading the words you are writing. Obviously at this point you would not accept him because he didn't fulfill the requirements to be moshiach vaday as AsherO made a link to the rambam before.
i dont think you read what you write. everything was based on the fact that the requirements would be fufilled in a hypothetical case. why does everyone keep harping on the point that the requirements are not fufilled. i always say if and therefore it is about the person themself not the technical obligations

 Seemingly someone cared...

Not to mention I would hope a mentch would admit when someone answers their question to admit it was a valid answer.
i hope that was sarcastic
a valid answer
;D

Offline bubbles

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #231 on: February 07, 2012, 11:51:32 PM »


why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
  more learned doesn't equal greater always.

I have no desire to get involved in any of this but do not talk in derogatory terms about Rav Shach.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #232 on: February 07, 2012, 11:53:20 PM »
i dont think you read what you write. everything was based on the fact that the requirements would be fufilled in a hypothetical case. why does everyone keep harping on the point that the requirements are not fufilled. i always say if and therefore it is about the person themself not the technical obligations  i hope that was sarcastic ;D

The person has no baring in halacha once the "if" is fulfilled hence the discussion of "who" whether its a rebbe, gadol, or lehavdel an apparent rasha is moot and pointless. Because the age of messiah will already be a part of the world, with said person Leading the nation. That was my point. Chap?

" i hope that was sarcastic"

It should be sarcastic. But it was in response to the suggestion that when someone blatantly disrespects a gadol/rebbe the said follower should not care. Obviously someone should care when their leader is dissed.

I have no desire to get involved in any of this but do not talk in derogatory terms about Rav Shach.

+1 as stated before. 
exactly the problem with this entire thread.  Every other post is trying to attack a fellow Jew.
I'm not going to lock this thread in case the OP wants to post his Rabbi's response, but let's refrain from any further attacks that don't have to do with clarifying the halachic position on the belief that someone who was niftar may be moshiach.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 11:58:50 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline gozalim

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #233 on: February 08, 2012, 01:36:21 AM »
I'm not sure if this makes it better, but I think he said it b/c of the chashash that it may a mashichis minyan. So he was not technically banning the whole Chabad movement, but he was saying that there's enough of these ppl to make all of the minyanim a chashash.

doesn't really make it better.
he's still saying that a) meshichist = not Jewish -halachicly incorrect as well as severely misinformed and b) every Lubavitcher is chashash mishichist. c) the issue is sever enough to be Osur misofeik (also neged chezkas kashrus) and ultimately he's still saying "every Lubavitcher is Posul (Misafek)" [posul misafek is still posul.]
all this from someone that I'm assuming you- and he- are not haters

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #234 on: February 08, 2012, 02:50:27 AM »
doesn't really make it better.
he's still saying that a) meshichist = not Jewish -halachicly incorrect as well as severely misinformed and b) every Lubavitcher is chashash mishichist. c) the issue is sever enough to be Osur misofeik (also neged chezkas kashrus) and ultimately he's still saying "every Lubavitcher is Posul (Misafek)" [posul misafek is still posul.]
all this from someone that I'm assuming you- and he- are not haters

keep in mind that this rav lives in israel, and its not beyond the realm of possibility that a majority are mashichis in israel
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:54:16 AM by Reuven »

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #235 on: February 08, 2012, 03:01:36 AM »
allow me to sharpen my first question

had the rebbe had a son, and he was the current rebbe, would this whole phenomenom exist?
what i am asking is azoi. is the belief that he is the mashiach more a reflection of his chasidim missing him and wanting him to return than it is their actually thinking he is the moshiach?
bc, i think that had he had a son who was a gadol as well, no one would be desiring and thinking that the rebbe was moshiach. ppl would have moved on as they have so many other times

interested in hearing ur thoughts, particularly chabad members

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #236 on: February 08, 2012, 04:13:23 AM »
allow me to sharpen my first question

had the rebbe had a son, and he was the current rebbe, would this whole phenomenom exist?
what i am asking is azoi. is the belief that he is the mashiach more a reflection of his chasidim missing him and wanting him to return than it is their actually thinking he is the moshiach?
bc, i think that had he had a son who was a gadol as well, no one would be desiring and thinking that the rebbe was moshiach. ppl would have moved on as they have so many other times

interested in hearing ur thoughts, particularly chabad members
you are probably right. In theory, if the Rebbe had a Son or a son-in-law that were to take upon the nis'ius (becoming Rebbe) then i doubt anyone would say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. and im sure the other way around would also be true, that is the previous Rebbe was the last Rebbe, im sure people might have said that he's moshiach as well

but you have to look at a different point. The Rebbe made a very big stress a bunch of different times that now is Moshiach's times and we are so close - literally. and its up to us to push that last thing and bring Moshiach, and im sure the previous rebbe also spoke about Moshiach but none of the other 6 rebbeim spoke about it like the Rebbe.
that being said, and looking at the fact there was noone else to take over the Nesi'us, it became one thing that this is the last generation before Moshiach. and there were many other hints from sichos and ma'marim that this is the last generation before moshiach...i wont get into them now for argument sake..(unless this is not enough and you really want to)
 

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #237 on: February 08, 2012, 08:45:01 AM »
Been debating whether to jump in on this thread for a while now... Just couldn't resist this one:
if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)

I say mclovin should be banned from MNF a la Hank Williams Jr!

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #238 on: February 08, 2012, 09:41:07 AM »
Been debating whether to jump in on this thread for a while now... Just couldn't resist this one:
I say mclovin should be banned from MNF a la Hank Williams Jr!
haha what a pity im not part of mnf. although if you want to start a ddf mnf league just to ban me its ok with me

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #239 on: February 08, 2012, 09:44:40 AM »

The person has no baring in halacha once the "if" is fulfilled hence the discussion of "who" whether its a rebbe, gadol, or lehavdel an apparent rasha is moot and pointless. Because the age of messiah will already be a part of the world, with said person Leading the nation. That was my point. Chap?

" i hope that was sarcastic"

It should be sarcastic. But it was in response to the suggestion that when someone blatantly disrespects a gadol/rebbe the said follower should not care. Obviously someone should care when their leader is dissed.
 
+1 as stated before.
i think i understand what youre saying although i feel my answer to that still stands.

as to the sarcastic part, sorry i thought u were going on the part that they had a party when r shach was niftar