Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146738 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #240 on: February 08, 2012, 10:58:12 AM »
This "party" business is ridiculous.  And the rabbi ate on tisha b'av with a girl on his lap, it's easy to twist anything.

Chassidim partied when the Rebbe died thinking that moshiach would be coming.  We farbrenged in yeshiva (which most other people would call a party when they see the food and booze at these things) at every possible occasion, good and bad, happy and sad.  The point of these is to take lessons and grow spiritually through song and self-reflection.  It's not something a non-chosid would ever understand to be anything but bittul-torah.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11400
  • Total likes: 125
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #241 on: February 08, 2012, 11:01:32 AM »
This "party" business is ridiculous.  And the rabbi ate on tisha b'av with a girl on his lap, it's easy to twist anything.

Chassidim partied when the Rebbe died thinking that moshiach would be coming.  We farbrenged in yeshiva (which most other people would call a party when they see the food and booze at these things) at every possible occasion, good and bad, happy and sad.  The point of these is to take lessons and grow spiritually through song and self-reflection.  It's not something a non-chosid would ever understand to be anything but bittul-torah.

+1
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:05:43 AM by sky121 »
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline shmiel

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2010
  • Posts: 284
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #242 on: February 08, 2012, 11:15:39 AM »

i said what he did. i didnt make anything up. ---Example: i never said that he stole money or didnt keep shabbos etc... that would be saying bad things. but if someone did something wrong than im not adding to the fact that he did it by saying he did it.

why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
  more learned doesn't equal greater always.
I don't want to get involved in all this, but I can't help but say that the way you are talking about R' Schach is wrong. There have been many cases throughout our history where Gedolim argued (cartloads of Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim were burned and as mentioned earlier in this thread R' Yaacov Emden and R Yonasson Aibeshutz) and it was L'shem Shomayim. Obviously you won't agree with R' Schach if you are Chabad, but to say it was Sinas Chinum is wrong. He felt there were serious problems with Chabad and voiced them L'shem Shomayim, not because of Sinas Chinum. In the case of the Rambam, on the exact spot that they burned the Moreh Nevuchim, cartloads of Tanach, Talmud and other holy books were burned, thus vindicating the Rambam. My point is that each should go according to their mesorah and that G-d has His ways of figuring these things out. Btw none of this is an attack on Chabad, I personally think they do great things (kiruv and otherwise) and I have davened at their minyanim many times and benefited from Chabad houses; I have a lot of Hakoras Ha'tov to Chabad.

Offline shmuelb

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 724
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Israel
  • Programs: Amex Plat, AAdvantage, Elal Matmid, Southwest, Delta Silver Medallion Skymiles, Hertz #1 Gold 5 Star, National Emerald Club Executive.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #243 on: February 08, 2012, 11:32:57 AM »
I don't want to get involved in all this, but I can't help but say that the way you are talking about R' Schach is wrong. There have been many cases throughout our history where Gedolim argued (cartloads of Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim were burned and as mentioned earlier in this thread R' Yaacov Emden and R Yonasson Aibeshutz) and it was L'shem Shomayim. Obviously you won't agree with R' Schach if you are Chabad, but to say it was Sinas Chinum is wrong. He felt there were serious problems with Chabad and voiced them L'shem Shomayim, not because of Sinas Chinum. ... My point is that each should go according to their mesorah and that G-d has His ways of figuring these things out. Btw none of this is an attack on Chabad, I personally think they do great things (kiruv and otherwise) and I have davened at their minyanim many times and benefited from Chabad houses; I have a lot of Hakoras Ha'tov to Chabad.

+1 Please, everyone, stop calling OTHER PPL"S GEDOLIM names and accusing them of sinas chinum etc. There is a lot to say both ways but that is not going to change anything here. Have any of you ever spoke to Rav Shach?? Ever saw him in person? He had taanos and was and is revered by many many Yidden all aound the world. To say "more than the Rebbe" is irrelevant. I am not going to go into stats now, I do not know them but I do know that many parts of Klal Yisroel held of Rav Shach and did not hold of the Rebbe. Many held of both. Chabad holds of the Rebbe alone. There is no point for us to mix in to their machlokes. We must not castigate either of them.

As my mother likes to say, "If a child is doing something wrong, the parent does not LIKE to hear about it. The mother or father KNOW what their kid is doing but for a third person to come and talk about it is painful. So too, Hashem knows everything about the Rebbe and Rav Shach, much better than we know. Hashem can judge them. For us to talk about them is a disgrace and hurtful to the Shechina"
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #244 on: February 08, 2012, 11:38:55 AM »
To asd, jewda, and whoever else that obviously has negative views on the Rebbe. It is not a good idea to walk in to a satmar beis medraash and talk against the satmar Ruv or in to a Lakewood bm and talk against of R' Ahron. It's just not good sense to come here, a predominantly Chabad crowd and spew your shittos which really aren't anything new.  This topic was started as a serious discussion (i think) about different aspects relating to chabad and can be a very interesting and informative discussion. Please, lets try to keep it that way.
+1.

Discussion on the R' Shach and whatever he said about the Rebbe, the Holocaust, J.B. Soloveitchik, The Gerer Rebbe, R' Steinsaltz, and YU, etc, etc are OT for this thread. :P
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8663
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #245 on: February 08, 2012, 11:49:39 AM »
+1.

Discussion on the R' Shach and whatever he said about the Rebbe, the Holocaust, J.B. Soloveitchik, The Gerer Rebbe, R' Steinsaltz, and YU, etc, etc are OT for this thread. :P

I didn't know there is a gerer rebbe story..?   :P

Offline whYME

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2786
  • Total likes: 391
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #246 on: February 08, 2012, 12:36:37 PM »
I don't want to pour any salt on the wounds here, however I had a rav (some 10k people in his kehilla), who himself is mainstream chabad (or so it looks like), and told a relative of mine not to step in the meshichisten minyan. (they were typically waiting outside to get passerby to complete their minyan).
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #247 on: February 08, 2012, 12:37:26 PM »
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...
+1
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8663
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #248 on: February 08, 2012, 12:38:32 PM »
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...

For a rav to boycott their minyan for political or personal reasons, would not be so nice...

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11400
  • Total likes: 125
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #249 on: February 08, 2012, 01:23:06 PM »
I think one thing that is helpful to remember is that THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT IN THIS WORLD.
Not any one person, or Rav even.  And while yes hopefully we all have people we can look up to for their standards and good deeds and it is a great thing to have a Rabbi or Rebbe to look up to and "follow" they too are not PERFECT.

         There has to be balance of setting higher standards while knowing that no one ALWAYS MAKES THE PERFECT DECISION OR SAYS THE PERFECT THING or ALWAYS goes the correct way in each scenario.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline ash

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 822
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #250 on: February 08, 2012, 01:56:53 PM »
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.


Very well written you should be a spokes person for Lubavitch... Yasher koach

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #251 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »
Very well written you should be a spokes person for Lubavitch... Yasher koach
Lol...thank you :)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline moish

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 9451
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: AA LT Plat, Avis, SPG Plat
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #252 on: February 08, 2012, 03:32:20 PM »
Please provide proof to what you are saying (just like you wanted proof the other way around otherwise please dont say it.)
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

but i do appreciate your brazenness. generally, its difficult (and a tad foolish) to be confident about something someone didnt say

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20563
  • Total likes: 126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #253 on: February 08, 2012, 03:41:46 PM »
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

Why would you want to keep something like that?
PGF24BMGS

Offline moish

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 9451
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: AA LT Plat, Avis, SPG Plat
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #254 on: February 08, 2012, 03:47:18 PM »
because this is not the first time ive heard the claim that he never spoke against r' shach. when the vid was posted, i knew it would rattle some peoples cage. i kept is so i dont have to hear that bs claim again