Messianism among Lubavitch

[dovy2]

That’s an idea firmly rooted in traditional Jewish sources. We understood it’s an esoteric concept, no one adjusts the mike for him.

There are other places to point to, that doesn’t ushpizim, the Gemara in ksubos about Rebbe. Put in never turned into the level that goes on in 770. Question is what’s heresy and what’s plain lunacy, I don’t know the line.

One of the Rebbe's (don't rmmbr which) would actually point as to where the Ushpizin were in his Sukka.
And some rumors say that the Rebbe would walk to the side of the Shevil while being called up on Simchas Torah, when he was called up with his father-in-law

[Definitions2]

Um, yes.

That’s what they wanted by the eigal too.

NOT saying it’s remotely the same, just proving that wanting something tangible can be catastrophic.

What's wrong in this case?

[jye]

I guess this was unlocked by request.
Red flag for what?
(,p.s. Did you watch kos shel eliyahu on pesach night?)

[Definitions2]

I can't see the image clearly. I see he says something about people making seudos for Eliyohu hanavi if they get out of a tzara but I can't see what he says afterwards.

Which part are you trying to show?

[avromie7]

Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?

[jye]

A tzaddik gamur of the Tanya doesn't sin. For that matter, neither does a TS"G or a beinoni of the Tanya, but sinning isn't shayich for a T"G.

You have a problem with the Baal Hatanya? Nunu. I'd say the first step is to actually learn Tanya.

From what I remember the בעל התניא holds that he may have sinned plenty but he was מזכך himself so that now he is בבחינת לבי חלל בקרבי.
The Amoraim Rabbah and Abbaye were not on this level. To claim about any one individual nowadays no matter how great he is that he is the one who is is really going out on a limb.

[jj1000]

Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?

Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

[jye]

I can't see the image clearly. I see he says something about people making seudos for Eliyohu hanavi if they get out of a tzara but I can't see what he says afterwards.

Which part are you trying to show?

He says that their intention was to donate the wine and food to poor people but if they actually put it out on the table for אליהו הנביא it would b תקרובת עבודה זרה. There are those who try to be meikel nowadays that גוים don’t really do העורכים לגד שולחן but the דרכי תשובה clearly isn’t in that camp.

[imayid2]

Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?

Because the Rebbe discussed it many times and Meshichts believe he very clearly meant it was him (although he said it about his FIL too so it gets confusing).

[TheAsh]

Where is @TheAsh

Didn’t this open for him?

I do have a life outside finding out what Lubavitcherd really think you know. Also, I assumed that my previous posts would be moved here.
If not I'll do it motzei shabbos.

[imayid2]

The Amoraim Rabbah and Abbaye were not on this level. To claim about any one individual nowadays no matter how great he is that he is the one who is is really going out on a limb.

Rav Moshe expressed his disconcertion about that here:   

[jye]

I think that two aspects are being conflated in error. צדיק גמור does NOT mean infallible in the sense that it is usually used. צדיק גמור is not a סתירה to being completely wrong. It simply means he does not have a יצר הרע being מושך him. רבי עקיבה who was a ניצוץ of משה and the source of all נגלה ונסתר we learn- כולנו אליבא דרבי עקיבה- misidentified משיח. It was not the יצר הרע it was simply that he was not infallible to the extent that Hashem wanted him to error in identifying משיח.

[ExGingi]

Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?

See my post above:

I guess you're on to something...


There might be better clips, but here is one.

[imayid2]

What does a Lubavitcher expect a non Lubavitcherto think if he believes the Rebbe is mistaken about x,(whatever it may be, not important)?

It would be fruitless to expect him to believe that really it’s just perception and really the Rebbe is right etc.

So his options are:

1) A tzaddik gamur can make a mistake.

2) The Rebbe isn’t a tzaddik Gamur (like most tzaddikim out there.)

[avromie7]

Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

[TheAsh]

Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

I doubt it. (At least the meshichists). Their whole life was spent screaming yechi and waving yellow flags and putting up stupid stickers everywhere and doing mivtzoim that revovle around accepting the Rebbes matches and nevuah, and suddenly someone else says he was mashiach they accept him!? I call bs.

Furthermore,  the Rebbes death didn't stop them, and they found obscure sources that a dead person can be moshaich (something belied by the very concept of Moshiach Shebador) I'm sure they'd find some sources that there are two moshiach ben davids or something.

[TheAsh]

Like this nut will suddenly accept someone else as Moshiach? I doubt it.
https://forward.com/news/507424/messiah-is-here-signs-new-york-chabad-schneerson/

Once one is stuck in a conspiracy theory (which is essentially what meshichistim, no matter the scoop level, is) there's no way out.

[Dan]

The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.

[imayid2]

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.

Don’t meshichistim believe unequivocally that the Rebbe meant he was moshiach?

Essentially, you are saying they believe there is a possibility that he was wrong.

[TheAsh]

Don’t meshichistim believe unequivocally that the Rebbe meant he was moshiach?

Essentially, you are saying they believe there is a possibility that he was wrong.

Meshichist: they all hold like me but they're just afraid to say it.

Non meshichist: they all hold like.me but they are just afraid to say it.