Messianism among Lubavitch

[gutlib]

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.

old joke (for those who understand..)

When Moshiach comes he'll go to Chabad to show them that their Rebbi was not Moshiach, then go to Belz and take them out of the vinkel and at last stop into Bresliv and to extinguish the fire.

[imayid2]

(for those who understand..)

Count me out but I’m listening

[jj1000]

The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

I guess I'm not clear what part of Chabad you are referring to. The extremes or as a whole.

I doubt it. (At least the meshichists). Their whole life was spent screaming yechi and waving yellow flags and putting up stupid stickers everywhere and doing mivtzoim that revovle around accepting the Rebbes matches and nevuah, and suddenly someone else says he was mashiach they accept him!? I call bs.

Furthermore,  the Rebbes death didn't stop them, and they found obscure sources that a dead person can be moshaich (something belied by the very concept of Moshiach Shebador) I'm sure they'd find some sources that there are two moshiach ben davids or something.

Like this nut will suddenly accept someone else as Moshiach? I doubt it.
https://forward.com/news/507424/messiah-is-here-signs-new-york-chabad-schneerson/

Once one is stuck in a conspiracy theory (which is essentially what meshichistim, no matter the scoop level, is) there's no way out.

So much to unpack.

From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.

By you saying that obscure sources are conspiracy theories and seemingly unacceptable, then you are in essence saying only some of torah is true but not all. And hey, cool man, believe what you want, but don't go telling others they are in the wrong here.

Like Dan said:

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.

And while I agree 0.0001% of people may not agree with that, it's a fraction of a fraction, but the Chabad consensuses definitely agree with it. OTOH I think a much larger percentage, maybe yourself included, would say that they won't follow the Rebbe if he came as moshiach now.

[jj1000]

If you talk to your average learned lubavitcher that believes the Rebbe is Moshiach, I think he would explain The Rebbe is what the Rambam calls chezkas Moshiach and not Moshiach vaday.

@ExGingi CMIIW.

It seems a lot of confusion comes from chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach to what outsiders take to mean the rebbe is moshiach and we won't follow anyone else even if they do everything laid out in rambam would take to be moshiach vaday.

[TheAsh]

I guess I'm not clear what part of Chabad you are referring to. The extremes or as a whole.
So much to unpack.

From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.

By you saying that obscure sources are conspiracy theories and seemingly unacceptable, then you are in essence saying only some of torah is true but not all. And hey, cool man, believe what you want, but don't go telling others they are in the wrong here.

Like Dan said:
 And while I agree 0.0001% of people may not agree with that, it's a fraction of a fraction, but the Chabad consensuses definitely agree with it. OTOH I think a much larger percentage, maybe yourself included, would say that they won't follow the Rebbe if he came as moshiach now.

Halacha works a certain way.

Unless you are ok with woman rabbis? Or someone who doesn't believe in Moshaich at all? Or someone who believes in J? Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.

[TheAsh]

If you talk to your average learned lubavitcher that believes the Rebbe is Moshiach, I think he would explain The Rebbe is what the Rambam calls chezkas Moshiach and not Moshiach vaday.

@ExGingi CMIIW.

It seems a lot of confusion comes from chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach to what outsiders take to mean the rebbe is moshiach and we won't follow anyone else even if they do everything laid out in rambam would take to be moshiach vaday.

It doesnt fit that without some serious source kvetching but ok.

And ignoring the fact that the Rambam holds Moshiach has to come from the living.

And ignoring the fact that the chazaka would be broken with death.

But if you cherry pick other sources and twist and kvetch, it works, so it's OK, and if you call it out you are the bigger problem!

Fine.

[imayid2]

From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.

Not really sure what this means. How can believing the Rebbe is mashiach be “against Halacha”. There is no halachik violation even if I think it isn’t true.

I mean I’ve heard  some give him an Aliya, so technically that’s messing up up קרה״ת, but that scoop territory FWIU.

[imayid2]

And ignoring the fact that the Rambam holds Moshiachbhas to come from the living.

Can the Rambam be wrong?

[EliJelly]

I've seen one working on adjusting the Rebbe's mic with maybe a thousand people watching without giving a blink.

You know there are hundreds of thousands of lubavitchers in the world, yes?

770 happens to be a magnet for extremists. Also, how many of the 1,000 people are watching the spectacle versus participating?

After a period of silence (when the Rebbe finished the Sicha?), the entire fully packed 770 broke out in fiery yechi songs. I didn't read their brains but it definitely didn't seem like they were just watching a spectacle.

[imayid2]

Halacha works a certain way.

Unless you are ok with woman rabbis? Or someone who doesn't believe in Moshaich at all? Or someone who believes in J? Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.

Why do you think of Mashiach can come from the dead is a halachik discussion?

It is not.

Women Rabbis are arguably

J Is considered part of Trinity

Not believing in mashiach is against an ikkur.

Non comparable 

[jj1000]

Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.

I think we are getting to the bottom of your misunderstanding with how Halacha works.

Tell me more about your sources.

[Dan]

After a period of silence (when the Rebbe finished the Sicha?), the entire fully packed 770 broke out in fiery yechi songs. I didn't read their brains but it definitely didn't seem like they were just watching a spectacle.

Lol. Please send me those clips!

[jj1000]

Not really sure what this means. How can believing the Rebbe is mashiach be “against Halacha”. There is no halachik violation even if I think it isn’t true.

I mean I’ve heard  some give him an Aliya, so technically that’s messing up up קרה״ת, but that scoop territory FWIU.

You must not have read this whole thread. If not, the post may seem random.

There are people that won't eat a Chabad hechsher because they believe that thinking the rebbe could be moshiach is apikarsus and makes them not believed for issurim.

[imayid2]

You must not have read this whole thread. If not, the post may seem random.

There are people that won't eat a Chabad hechsher because they believe that thinking the rebbe could be moshiach is apikarsus and makes them not believed for issurim.

I have read the thread.

I don’t think that’s accurate as I started today’s discussion:

“Messianism” IMHO is a distraction.

Of course there is nothing heretical believing if someone’s mashiach even if they aren’t alive. It’s the shevil stuff that’s a red flag.

Do non meshichists do shevil stuff?

To say that believing the Rebbe could be mashiach is apikursus is laughable and demonstrably false.

And this has nothing to do of there are actually sources for it, it isn’t regardless.

[jj1000]

I have read the thread.

I don’t think that’s accurate as I started today’s discussion:
To say that believing the Rebbe could be mashiach is apikursus is laughable and demonstrably false.

I this has nothing to do of there are actually sources for it, it isn’t regardless.

Happy to hear it. If everyone felt the same, this thread would be 1 page.

[EliJelly]

Lol. Please send me those clips!

Happened this past CH Sukkos. Captured it with my flip phone so very unclear since it was from a distance. Was also uncomfortable recording in such a holy setting when nobody had their phones out. 

[jj1000]

Happened this past CH Sukkos. Captured it with my flip phone so very unclear since it was from a distance. Was also uncomfortable recording in such a holy setting when nobody had their phones out. 

Tishrei has a HUGE influx from Israel, basically everyone that is extreme is there in Tishrei if they physically can be.

[EliJelly]

What is the earliest source in Chabad that the Rebbe is the מלך המשיח? Did the Rashab ever called his father or grandfather so? Contrary to what others have pushed upthread, that language was NEVER used anywhere else, to the contrary, there was once a time when certain people applied that to their Rebbe and it was rebuked by the gedolei h'dor. (I can post sources to that)

[TheAsh]

Happy to hear it. If everyone felt the same, this thread would be 1 page.

I agree. But there's a large gap between not apikrosus and correct.

I also would like to know the prevalence of these beliefs on Chabad. This thread made me think it's higher tham I thought which is sad.

[imayid2]

I also would like to know the prevalence of these beliefs on Chabad. This thread made me think it's higher tham I thought which is sad.

Why is it sad that people believe something that you feel is incorrect.

Who cares?