Messianism among Lubavitch

[yfr bachur]

I'm only about halfway through this long thread and im going to reserve comment until i'm done it all if i comment at all...

The only thing I'l say at this point (just after a bunch of stupid bickering about the machlokes between the Rebbe and Rav Shach) is that it seems that they were both "zoche" to alleged followers who are 2+ scoops (to quote Dan) and I'll take the Rebbe's any day of the week...
(Solid litvisher here)

The other thing that I'm really hoping gets answered over the next half is say we spot you that Moshiach could be someone who is in the olam haemes already - Why should it be the Rebbe?
The answer thats been given so far from what I've seen is A. bec he's my rebbe B. bec he's from this dor C. He's the nasi of the dor D. he fulfilled the conditions of the Rambam.

None of these are convincing to me.
A. So? Maybe it's R' Aharon Belzer? Or The besht/goan? or Chizkiyahu Hamelech? or any other great tzadik who decended from dovid over the last 3000 years?
B. Really? There are almost people making bar mitzvas that were born after his histalkus. Its really shver to say that we, now are living in the generation of the rebbe. True there are many people who remember him, but to say that NOW it is his dor is really a stretch once you stop drinking the coolaid
C. Again, if you remove yourself from the "Chabad"-tinted glasses - not as pashut as a you would make it out to be...
D. Really? explain please - line by line please - and don't stop till the end....

[imayid2]

The other thing that I'm really hoping gets answered over the next half is say we spot you that Moshiach could be someone who is in the olam haemes already - Why should it be the Rebbe?
The answer thats been given so far from what I've seen is A. bec he's my rebbe B. bec he's from this dor C. He's the nasi of the dor D. he fulfilled the conditions of the Rambam.

None of these are convincing to me.
A. So? Maybe it's R' Aharon Belzer? Or The besht/goan? or Chizkiyahu Hamelech? or any other great tzadik who decended from dovid over the last 3000 years?
B. Really? There are almost people making bar mitzvas that were born after his histalkus. Its really shver to say that we, now are living in the generation of the rebbe. True there are many people who remember him, but to say that NOW it is his dor is really a stretch once you stop drinking the coolaid
C. Again, if you remove yourself from the "Chabad"-tinted glasses - not as pashut as a you would make it out to be...
D. Really? explain please - line by line please - and don't stop till the end....

The answer is simple.

The Rebbe implied (or was clear) that mashiach would be the נשיא הדור of Chabad. He remains their spiritual guide in every way.

[yfr bachur]

The answer is simple.

The Rebbe implied (or was clear) that mashiach would be the נשיא הדור of Chabad. He remains their spiritual guide in every way.

That's just saying bec he was my rebbe...
Removed from Chabad only hashgafos and mesoros - why him?
It's circular reasoning: the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach bec he said that the lubavitcher rebbe would be moshiach bec the lubavitchers say that their rebbe will be moshiach bec some early chasid said that the 7th rebbe will be moshiach bec our lubavitcher mesora is that the rebbe will be moshiach...

[imayid2]

That's just saying bec he was my rebbe...
Removed from Chabad only hashgafos and mesoros - why him?

Because he said, or implied so.

[yfr bachur]

Because he said, or implied so.

and now he's dead.
and the gemara says that chizkiyahu would have been moshiach, and Rabi Akiva said that Bar Kochva was moshiach till he died
I'll go with a tana or amora over a implication of an achron who died in my lifetime...
So is it Chizkiyahu or Bar Kochva??

[imayid2]

and now he's dead.
and the gemara says that chizkiyahu would have been moshiach, and Rabi Akiva said that Bar Kochva was moshiach till he died
I'll go with a tana or amora over a implication of an achron who died in my lifetime...
So is it Chizkiyahu or Bar Kochva??

Do you know any who’s influenced directly by them and claim to consider them their spiritual guide?

[imayid2]

It's circular reasoning: the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach bec he said that the lubavitcher rebbe would be moshiach bec the lubavitchers say that their rebbe will be moshiach bec some early chasid said that the 7th rebbe will be moshiach bec our lubavitcher mesora is that the rebbe will be moshiach...

I’m not understanding this at all.

Nothing circular going on, he worked his whole life to bring mashiach and implied it would be him, so that’s that.

[gozalim]

Moshiach as the ramabam describes him, will run a succesful kiruv campaign, so successful that he eventually reaches the tipping point of הוגה בתורה כדוד אביו, יכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה,

(eventualy acomplishes וחוזרין כל המשפטים בימיו כשהיו מקודם. also part of why כל מי שאינו מאמין בו או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו)

race is on kids

[TheAsh]

The answer is simple.

The Rebbe implied (or was clear) that mashiach would be the נשיא הדור of Chabad. He remains their spiritual guide in every way.

Of course, the possibility he was wrong is ignored.

[imayid2]

Of course, the possibility he was wrong is ignored.

Ignored? Was discussed up thread.

Besides, it’s a high expectation for a religious group to not follow their leader because they suspect he’s wrong.

I think it’s religious abuse to force women to shave their heads. Try to convince those groups that those who endorsed it were wrong.

Try to convince any yeshvish guy that many Rishonim didn’t understand embryology the way it actually happens.

Etc etc

[Dan]

Ignored? Was discussed up thread.

Besides, it’s a high expectation for a religious group to not follow their leader because they suspect he’s wrong.

I think it’s religious abuse to force women to shave their heads. Try to convince those groups that those who endorsed it were wrong.

Try to convince any yeshvish guy that many Rishonim didn’t understand embryology the way it actually happens.

Etc etc

AKA, unless something violates halacha, there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.

[Dan]

I’m not understanding this at all.

Nothing circular going on, he worked his whole life to bring mashiach and implied it would be him, so that’s that.

No, he implied it would be his FIL, as that was his Rebbe.

The rest is extrapolation.

[ExGingi]

No, he implied it would be his FIL, as that was his Rebbe.

The rest is extrapolation.

[not a] nice try.

It's as clear as can be starting from Yud Shevat 5711 throughout the years, קונטרס בית רבינו שבבל and more. @imayid2 seems to have it right.

[Dan]

No, he implied it would be his FIL, as that was his Rebbe.

Of course this is all a question on the meshichists that won't visit the Ohel, which the Rebbe visited multiple times per week for hours at a time, reading all of the bags of letters and requests he would receive.

[Dan]

[not a] nice try.

It's as clear as can be starting from Yud Shevat 5711 throughout the years, קונטרס בית רבינו שבבל and more. @imayid2 seems to have it right.

You should believe your Rebbe, is the Nosi Hador and is moshiach. I don't see the contradiction. Obviously chasidim would feel that way about our Rebbe.

[ExGingi]

Of course this is all a question on the meshichists that won't visit the Ohel, which the Rebbe visited multiple times per week for hours at a time, reading all of the bags of letters and requests he would receive.

To use your lingo, are the more "meshichists" who won't visit the Ohel or "antis" who won't step into 770?

The entire assertion is ridiculous.

[ExGingi]

You should believe your Rebbe, is the Nosi Hador and is moshiach. I don't see the contradiction. Obviously chasidim would feel that way about our Rebbe.

This isn't about feeling. It's about as clear as it get from the sichos and maamorim!

[Dan]

To use your lingo, are the more "meshichists" who won't visit the Ohel or "antis" who won't step into 770?

The entire assertion is ridiculous.

No idea. I visit both regularly.
Can someone like YK or MK visit downstairs 770 without getting hurt by tunnel diggers?

[Dan]

This isn't about feeling. It's about as clear as it get from the sichos and maamorim!

We're not arguing AFAIK, but OK.

[ExGingi]

No idea. I visit both regularly.
Can someone like YK or MK visit downstairs 770 without getting hurt by tunnel diggers?

Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt. Unfortunately, anyone who is opposed to anarchy is subject to being hurt. I was personally threatened when I tried to insist on orderly conduct when I was davening at the omud. I eventually gave up fighting when I saw that said Gabbay refused to back me up with some basic rules of conduct. I was probably spared by the fact that rather than fight back, I told them to go ahead and hurt me, so they knew I was serious about the consequences that they would face.