Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407765 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1720 on: January 14, 2024, 09:50:31 PM »
You can ask the same question on Hashem. Same answer. He would have but we aren't on the level (translation, we haven't said enough yechis, or done enough mivtzoim).
No, Gd has his reasons.
The Rebbe clearly said he saw no reasons for him not being here and that he did all he could.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1721 on: January 14, 2024, 09:52:59 PM »
It's more like a bechina of J, unfortunately, for many. Nobody thinks Yaakov avinu sees everything he does.
Nah, that the Rebbe knew what one said, did, and thought was experienced by many people, including my grandparents, other relatives, and many others in yechidus. Just watch living Torah for testimony from a wide variety of Jews.

I'd call it ruach hakodesh but to each their own.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 09:57:10 PM by Dan »
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1722 on: January 14, 2024, 09:58:06 PM »
Nah, that the Rebbe knew what one said, did, and thought was experienced by many people, including my grandparents, other relatives, and many others in yechidus. Just watch living Torah for testimony.

I'd call it ruach hakodesh but to each their own.

Of course. But that could be that the Rebbe was read minds or could look at a persons face. It doesn't mean that he watches and knows everything 24/7. (A simple test would be to ask "does the rebbe know someone who is not mekushar's thoughts?" "can the rebbe make a mistake"?)
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1723 on: January 14, 2024, 09:59:02 PM »
No, Gd has his reasons.
The Rebbe clearly said he saw no reasons for him not being here and that he did all he could.

I am literally quoting a meshichists answer to me in my quote. (a chabad shliach in EY). feel free to pm for the name.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1724 on: January 14, 2024, 10:07:08 PM »
I am literally quoting a meshichists answer to me in my quote. (a chabad shliach in EY). feel free to pm for the name.

Oh and he told me the Rebbe cannot make a mistake because he's עצמות מלובש בגוף. While that phrase may not be עז his interpretation certainly was.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1725 on: January 14, 2024, 10:13:01 PM »
Oh and he told me the Rebbe cannot make a mistake because he's עצמות מלובש בגוף. While that phrase may not be עז his interpretation certainly was.
You and I are also עצמות מלובש בגוף :)
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1726 on: January 14, 2024, 10:13:56 PM »
Who said it's not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes/ma hu bchaim?
The treatment of both is not the same, clearly.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1727 on: January 14, 2024, 10:21:28 PM »
Can you understand someone who would not want to rely on someone who believes the Rebbe was not niftar (not a bechina like Yaakov Avinu lo mes), even when it's not possible for anyone to live so long?
Yeah because he’s obviously a few cards short of a deck.

But that doesn’t necessarily make it heresy. Depends on the reason he maintains that.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1728 on: January 14, 2024, 10:23:17 PM »
That a tzadik has an aspect that the Shemesh and Yareach don't. A bechina does not mean full fledged.
An aspect of Godliness but not full fledged. Just enough to be able to bow to him.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1729 on: January 14, 2024, 10:25:48 PM »
Yeah because he’s obviously a few cards short of a deck.

But that doesn’t necessarily make it heresy. Depends on the reason he maintains that.

Why are you assuming they are crazy? No crazier than other religions out there.

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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1730 on: January 14, 2024, 10:31:02 PM »
An aspect of Godliness but not full fledged. Just enough to be able to bow to him.

Also just enough to make a litvak's accusation of ע"ז not some conspiracy theory but have a basis in fact. (To be clear I don't think it actually is).

The issue is not that most Chabad are עובדי ע"ז. They certainly are not. The issue is that there are certain strong elements among them that are, yet certain גדולים who pointed this out and predicted it are mocked as crazies and that the bigger issue is those who do not have אהבת ישראל.

יחי does not make one an עובד עבודה זרה . ,But one does not need to be a full-fledged elokist to be one.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1731 on: January 14, 2024, 10:45:22 PM »
"can the rebbe make a mistake"?)
Source that believing someone can’t make a mistake is beyond the pale?

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1732 on: January 14, 2024, 11:11:46 PM »
I just want to clarify what I think the true chasidus mehalach is, based on what I learned with a shliach bechavrusa.

There is a concept of a believing that one's Rebbe is Mashiach. The Rebbe held of his FIL as Moshaich and the chasidim of the Rebbe should hold that he is. But that does not mean they actually ARE because there cannot be more than one moshaich. (Especially once you consider chasidim of other Rebbes). While the Rebbe was alive, the chazaka was that he was Moshaich. Now that he is niftar, he clearly is not. Rather, he takes on the status that the friediger Rebbe did, of a hisnagus of.moshaich despite knowing he clearly isn't. So what did the Rebbe mean that he will redeem us? Rather, to answer this contradiction, it must be that the real Moshiach Ben David will do a techies hamasim before the final geula, so that all the tzadikim promised to see the geula will, and all the Chasidim will follow their own Rebbe to the geula sheleima - but not that they are in fact THE moshaich.
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Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1733 on: January 14, 2024, 11:51:21 PM »
Not considering something “normal” doesn’t make it heretical.

Say you believe that there is some ritualistic importance of not cutting hair until 3 years old. I may think that is off, but it’s not heretical.

Even if chances are it comes from pagan cultures ;)

But having a tendency to attribute as many מנהגי ישראל as possible to pagen cultures and avodah zara, when you don't seem to know the reason/source, is indeed borderline heretical, according to the Chasam Sofer.  :P

 

« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 11:57:25 PM by EliJelly »

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1734 on: January 15, 2024, 12:01:22 AM »
But having a tendency to attribute as many מנהגי ישראל as possible to pagen cultures and avodah zara, when you don't seem to know the reason/source, is indeed borderline heretical, according to the Chasam Sofer.  :P

 


Tell it to Rav Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who wrote a letter decrying the practice.

Presumably he was aware of the חת״ס :)

Online EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1735 on: January 15, 2024, 12:04:20 AM »
Tell it to Rav Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who wrote a letter decrying the practice.

Presumably he was aware of the חת״ס :)

Didn't dig into this one but we have a pattern already, untying knots of chosson kallah, shaving after the wedding, all coming from avodah zara, and you didn't spill all your beans yet...

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1736 on: January 15, 2024, 12:09:01 AM »
Didn't dig into this one but we have a pattern already, untying knots of chosson kallah, shaving after the wedding, all coming from avodah zara, and you didn't spill all your beans yet...
These are not things I engage in, the pattern of those who do should be investigated :) :)

Offline Just A Jew

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1737 on: January 15, 2024, 12:09:31 AM »


1. The irony of this song using a Carlebach tune will forever be great.

2. For context, listen to the words which the Rebbe says within the song, ma zaroi bachayim, af hu bachayim, and his explanation of those words.

3.
this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Moshiach (except as a reason for delay).

FTFM.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1738 on: January 15, 2024, 12:11:24 AM »
FTFM.
For you is right

Nothing wrong with having a civil discussion about these matters.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1739 on: January 15, 2024, 12:19:38 AM »
and you didn't spill all your beans yet...
Bumped into another one recently, thankfully now obsolete. See יו״ד קצח סעיף ו about the sheidim who tie hair up overnight and the dangers of cutting it of.