Messianism among Lubavitch

[TheAsh]

But having a tendency to attribute as many מנהגי ישראל as possible to pagen cultures and avodah zara, when you don't seem to know the reason/source, is indeed borderline heretical, according to the Chasam Sofer. 

 

Thanks for derailing the thread.

I have 1) stated clearly my issues with parts of certain people.within Chabad belief
2) put forth an alternative understanding of the Rebbes sichos
3) explained that there exists legitimate concern of AZ, certainly enough that when a litvak shows concern, he is not being crazy and to say that he is is simply.gaslighting
 

I have not yet received a response other than denial (again, gaslighting) or regulating such beliefs to crazies (when they are clearly common to many in Chabad and held by intelligent people).

Chabad members: Are litvaks just sonei yisroel? Or do they have legitimate concerns and will you join them in denouncing those who have gone overboard? And inwould.love to hear your thoughts on the interpretation of the Rebbes sichos I put forward.

I come as someone who loves chassidus and does not like denial of serious issues.

[imayid2]

Thanks for derailing the thread.

That would be me, you think I didn't expect him to do that

[imayid2]

Thanks for derailing the thread.

I have 1) stated clearly my issues with parts of certain people.within Chabad belief
2) put forth an alternative understanding of the Rebbes sichos
3) explained that there exists legitimate concern of AZ, certainly enough that when a litvak shows concern, he is not being crazy and to say that he is is simply.gaslighting

Pointless to fight about pshat in the Rebbe's sichos regarding mashiach imo. Minds are set on that even if you think it's loony. There is no theological isue in thinking the Rebbe is mashiach.

It remains unclear exactly what would cross a line and how many actually engage it. Problems with Litvaks showing concern are when they don't usually understand the concept of a Rebbe in the first place or exactly would should be considered problamatic.

[imayid2]

I have not yet received a response other than denial (again, gaslighting) or regulating such beliefs to crazies (when they are clearly common to many in Chabad and held by intelligent people).

Disagree with your usage of gaslighting. And you have yet to clearly qualify exactly which belief you find problamatic. That the Rebbe is aware of what's going on? There is a sugya in brachos if the meisim know what's happening.

Chabad members: Are litvaks just sonei yisroel? Or do they have legitimate concerns and will you join them in denouncing those who have gone overboard?

No membership to Chabad and Iv'e seen some nasty content out there so yes there is some of that going around.

[jye]

Look, that's between you and your wife and I'm not taking sides here , I'll just stick to what the Chasam Sofer says.

This is more interesting than the meshichist thing which is going in circles. We need a lead pouring and shlisel challah spin-off.

[imayid2]

This is more interesting than the meshichist thing which is going in circles. We need a lead pouring and shlisel challah spin-off.

We are getting backlogged, up to this one

Bumped into another one recently, thankfully now obsolete. See יו״ד קצח סעיף ו about the sheidim who tie hair up overnight and the dangers of cutting it of.

[gozalim]

I understand that many Chassidishe ideas make litvaks feel weird. Weird, even wrong, =/=  AZ, we have a shulchan aruch for that.

If your gadol said 'don't treat their seforim' that would add up (though I would disagree). But how to get from there to 'don't drink their wine' is a leap worthy of a chassid

[imayid2]

I understand that many Chassidishe ideas make litvaks feel weird. Weird, even wrong, =/=  AZ, we have a shulchan aruch for that.

If your gadol said 'don't treat their seforim' that would add up (though I would disagree). But how to get from there to 'don't drink their wine' is a leap worthy of a chassid

Let’s say me and you think the Gadol is wrong. What should we expect his followers to do?

Would you acknowledge that your Gadol erred?

[gozalim]

So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding

[imayid2]

So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding

What defines a legitimate explanation?

One that you agree to?

[aygart]

We are getting backlogged, up to this one

What part of the discussion about sheidim do you understand?

[imayid2]

What part of the discussion about sheidim do you understand?

Irrelevant, we know with certainty that Pica Plonica is caused by poor hygiene. And the superstition about not cutting it off definitely comes from impure sources.

[whacked1]

Would you acknowledge that your Gadol erred?

[whacked1]

So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding

Do you apply the same logic to the followers of any other person on this list? Or is that acceptable hate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants

[imayid2]

Do you apply the same logic to the followers of any other person on this list? Or is that acceptable hate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants

Can’t compare to movements that were clearly antinomian

[gozalim]

Legitimate explanation is one that you understand as halachic, not discomfort, and that you can follow the halachic logic of

[jj1000]

So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding

100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

Same goes for @TheAsh the claims of how justified the Gra was because look what some do and say, is preposterous.

And I also never got a reply to other questions I presented.

The reason this is such a hang up by some litvaks is 100% based in hundreds of years of hate and it's absolutely not justified as explained in this thread many times already. I heard so many times, the Gra was right to hate the Alter Rebbe because of mishichists, it's ridiculous. Same logic being spite (Freudian slip) out now.

This is such a slippery slope for how you make opinions on people, it's scary to me.

You have a DDF Members that says talking in shul, is worse than most anything else, and if you talk, you are basically off the derech, sorta what you are saying is the feeling I get. Is he wrong? Idk, it's hard for me to judge others personal beliefs and struggles.

If someone is fat, IMO they are much worse than an anti-vaxer. If a gadol is fat are they breaking halacha? Probably? Do they have less followers, I don't think so.

If someone smokes, obviously they are breaking halacha and are MUCH worse than all the above mentioned people.

If someone doesn't brush their teeth, they are likely also breaking halacha, and you are welcome to have poor opinions about all of these people. And say they destroy their whole persona. 

I disagree with you though.

[whacked1]

100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

I dont believe said gadol is my messiah. I relied on him (more or less) for halachic psak/opinions.

I dont hate any lubabitchers.

[TheAsh]

100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

Same goes for @TheAsh the claims of how justified the Gra was because look what some do and say, is preposterous.

And I also never got a reply to other questions I presented.

The reason this is such a hang up by some litvaks is 100% based in hundreds of years of hate and it's absolutely not justified as explained in this thread many times already. I heard so many times, the Gra was right to hate the Alter Rebbe because of mishichists, it's ridiculous. Same logic being spite (Freudian slip) out now.

Following the Rebbe even if it seems problematic: Emunas Chachamim

Following Rav Shach even if it seems problematic: Hate.

Did I get that right?

[jj1000]

I relied on him for opinions.

This is the slope. And how it begins...