Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407755 times)

Offline TheAsh

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2017
  • Posts: 324
  • Total likes: 223
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: Israel
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1760 on: January 15, 2024, 01:34:37 AM »
But having a tendency to attribute as many מנהגי ישראל as possible to pagen cultures and avodah zara, when you don't seem to know the reason/source, is indeed borderline heretical, according to the Chasam Sofer.  :P

 


Thanks for derailing the thread.

I have 1) stated clearly my issues with parts of certain people.within Chabad belief
2) put forth an alternative understanding of the Rebbes sichos
3) explained that there exists legitimate concern of AZ, certainly enough that when a litvak shows concern, he is not being crazy and to say that he is is simply.gaslighting
 

I have not yet received a response other than denial (again, gaslighting) or regulating such beliefs to crazies (when they are clearly common to many in Chabad and held by intelligent people).

Chabad members: Are litvaks just sonei yisroel? Or do they have legitimate concerns and will you join them in denouncing those who have gone overboard? And inwould.love to hear your thoughts on the interpretation of the Rebbes sichos I put forward.

I come as someone who loves chassidus and does not like denial of serious issues.

Check out @JewishAlternativeMusic2 on Telegram.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1761 on: January 15, 2024, 01:35:57 AM »
Thanks for derailing the thread.
That would be me, you think I didn't expect him to do that ;)

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1762 on: January 15, 2024, 01:44:14 AM »
Thanks for derailing the thread.

I have 1) stated clearly my issues with parts of certain people.within Chabad belief
2) put forth an alternative understanding of the Rebbes sichos
3) explained that there exists legitimate concern of AZ, certainly enough that when a litvak shows concern, he is not being crazy and to say that he is is simply.gaslighting
Pointless to fight about pshat in the Rebbe's sichos regarding mashiach imo. Minds are set on that even if you think it's loony. There is no theological isue in thinking the Rebbe is mashiach.

It remains unclear exactly what would cross a line and how many actually engage it. Problems with Litvaks showing concern are when they don't usually understand the concept of a Rebbe in the first place or exactly would should be considered problamatic.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1763 on: January 15, 2024, 01:49:53 AM »
I have not yet received a response other than denial (again, gaslighting) or regulating such beliefs to crazies (when they are clearly common to many in Chabad and held by intelligent people).
Disagree with your usage of gaslighting. And you have yet to clearly qualify exactly which belief you find problamatic. That the Rebbe is aware of what's going on? There is a sugya in brachos if the meisim know what's happening.

Chabad members: Are litvaks just sonei yisroel? Or do they have legitimate concerns and will you join them in denouncing those who have gone overboard?
No membership to Chabad and Iv'e seen some nasty content out there so yes there is some of that going around.

Offline jye

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 783
  • Total likes: 1245
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1764 on: January 15, 2024, 05:02:17 AM »
Look, that's between you and your wife and I'm not taking sides here :D, I'll just stick to what the Chasam Sofer says.
This is more interesting than the meshichist thing which is going in circles. We need a lead pouring and shlisel challah spin-off.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1765 on: January 15, 2024, 08:01:10 AM »
This is more interesting than the meshichist thing which is going in circles. We need a lead pouring and shlisel challah spin-off.
We are getting backlogged, up to this one
Bumped into another one recently, thankfully now obsolete. See יו״ד קצח סעיף ו about the sheidim who tie hair up overnight and the dangers of cutting it of.

Online gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4414
  • Total likes: 868
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1766 on: January 15, 2024, 09:15:03 AM »
I understand that many Chassidishe ideas make litvaks feel weird. Weird, even wrong, =/=  AZ, we have a shulchan aruch for that.

If your gadol said 'don't treat their seforim' that would add up (though I would disagree). But how to get from there to 'don't drink their wine' is a leap worthy of a chassid

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1767 on: January 15, 2024, 09:22:21 AM »
I understand that many Chassidishe ideas make litvaks feel weird. Weird, even wrong, =/=  AZ, we have a shulchan aruch for that.

If your gadol said 'don't treat their seforim' that would add up (though I would disagree). But how to get from there to 'don't drink their wine' is a leap worthy of a chassid
Letís say me and you think the Gadol is wrong. What should we expect his followers to do?

Would you acknowledge that your Gadol erred?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 09:44:27 AM by imayid2 »

Online gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4414
  • Total likes: 868
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1768 on: January 15, 2024, 09:28:47 AM »
So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1769 on: January 15, 2024, 09:35:25 AM »
So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding
What defines a legitimate explanation?

One that you agree to?

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 19195
  • Total likes: 15365
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1770 on: January 15, 2024, 09:52:13 AM »
We are getting backlogged, up to this one
What part of the discussion about sheidim do you understand?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1771 on: January 15, 2024, 09:54:41 AM »
What part of the discussion about sheidim do you understand?
Irrelevant, we know with certainty that Pica Plonica is caused by poor hygiene. And the superstition about not cutting it off definitely comes from impure sources.

Offline whacked1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 547
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1772 on: January 15, 2024, 10:12:51 AM »
Would you acknowledge that your Gadol erred?
;D

Offline whacked1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 547
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1773 on: January 15, 2024, 10:15:32 AM »
So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding
Do you apply the same logic to the followers of any other person on this list? Or is that acceptable hate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2608
  • Total likes: 2388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1774 on: January 15, 2024, 10:25:43 AM »
Do you apply the same logic to the followers of any other person on this list? Or is that acceptable hate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants
Canít compare to movements that were clearly antinomian

Online gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4414
  • Total likes: 868
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1775 on: January 15, 2024, 11:02:51 AM »
Legitimate explanation is one that you understand as halachic, not discomfort, and that you can follow the halachic logic of

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13871
  • Total likes: 6782
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1776 on: January 15, 2024, 11:10:48 AM »
So you don't actually understand his logic (you do understand his discomfort, but not his halachic conclusion) and you accept it in emunas chachamim.
Great! Welcome to Chassidus!

Also, with me as the recipient of that  negative leap, you can understand how, absent a legitimate halachic explanation, I'll refer to it as hate, your chachamim notwithstanding
100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

Same goes for @TheAsh the claims of how justified the Gra was because look what some do and say, is preposterous.

And I also never got a reply to other questions I presented.

The reason this is such a hang up by some litvaks is 100% based in hundreds of years of hate and it's absolutely not justified as explained in this thread many times already. I heard so many times, the Gra was right to hate the Alter Rebbe because of mishichists, it's ridiculous. Same logic being spite (Freudian slip) out now.

This is such a slippery slope for how you make opinions on people, it's scary to me.

You have a DDF Members that says talking in shul, is worse than most anything else, and if you talk, you are basically off the derech, sorta what you are saying is the feeling I get. Is he wrong? Idk, it's hard for me to judge others personal beliefs and struggles.

If someone is fat, IMO they are much worse than an anti-vaxer. If a gadol is fat are they breaking halacha? Probably? Do they have less followers, I don't think so.

If someone smokes, obviously they are breaking halacha and are MUCH worse than all the above mentioned people.

If someone doesn't brush their teeth, they are likely also breaking halacha, and you are welcome to have poor opinions about all of these people. And say they destroy their whole persona. 

I disagree with you though.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline whacked1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 547
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1777 on: January 15, 2024, 11:19:08 AM »
100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

I dont believe said gadol is my messiah. I relied on him (more or less) for halachic psak/opinions.

I dont hate any lubabitchers.

Offline TheAsh

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2017
  • Posts: 324
  • Total likes: 223
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: Israel
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1778 on: January 15, 2024, 11:20:11 AM »
100%

I feel the same about how @whacked1 was talking.

The gadol knows halacha more and I believe him. Details don't matter.

You now have a rebbe and you follow him. I have seen the Gadol attitude applied the same as chassidim do with their rebbe's COUNTLESS times. Things that didn't exist 300 years ago are now mainstream in all spectrums of orthodoxy.

And accordingly, based on the logic presented in this thread, this can lead to AZ, and you are the same as a regular Chabad guy now. (Which is preposterous IMO)

Same goes for @TheAsh the claims of how justified the Gra was because look what some do and say, is preposterous.

And I also never got a reply to other questions I presented.

The reason this is such a hang up by some litvaks is 100% based in hundreds of years of hate and it's absolutely not justified as explained in this thread many times already. I heard so many times, the Gra was right to hate the Alter Rebbe because of mishichists, it's ridiculous. Same logic being spite (Freudian slip) out now.

Following the Rebbe even if it seems problematic: Emunas Chachamim

Following Rav Shach even if it seems problematic: Hate.

Did I get that right?

Check out @JewishAlternativeMusic2 on Telegram.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13871
  • Total likes: 6782
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1779 on: January 15, 2024, 11:21:33 AM »
I relied on him for opinions.
This is the slope. And how it begins...
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)