Messianism among Lubavitch

[Avid Reader]

I just want to say, we should all realize that we have alot more in common then we may think. We choose  - or were born into famileis that choose different paths in serving Hashem. I'd say most of us Lubab's were not Lubavitch going back very far. In my family alone, I come from very varied backgrounds. On one line I come from some Yichus'deke 'Gedoiley Hamisnadim. My grandmother "AH was born in Lithuania and never saw a Chasid before her late 20's. On another line I come from a German Torah Im Derech Eretz family, etc.

On the flip side, I'm aware of plenty of Litvaks who are related or are actuall direct descendants of Chasidim and Rebbe's.

We each have our way of serving Hashem. Serious disccusion is good, but let's keep it civil and respectful.

[Drago]

I just want to say, we should all realize that we have alot more in common then we may think. We choose  - or were born into famileis that choose different paths in serving Hashem. I'd say most of us Lubab's were not Lubavitch going back very far. In my family alone, I come from very varied backgrounds. On one line I come from some Yichus'deke 'Gedoiley Hamisnadim. My grandmother "AH was born in Lithuania and never saw a Chasid before her late 20's. On another line I come from a German Torah Im Derech Eretz family, etc.

On the flip side, I'm aware of plenty of Litvaks who are related or are actuall direct descendants of Chasidim and Rebbe's.

We each have our way of serving Hashem. Serious disccusion is good, but let's keep it civil and respectful.

+1

We have enough external enemies, no need to create internal enemies as well

[jj1000]

20 minutes has got to be the sukkah question. while it may be heated no one is mentioned by name. IIRC the Rebbe was attacking the question as being provocational and spoke negatively about 'whoever' asked the question and attempted to stir up unrest. I believe if you watch the video the attack is more about the question.

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars

I heard a nice pshat that the when the rebbe saw something or heard something he disagreed with, he did not mention the person who held that shitah by name, (in this case rav shach), because it wasn't him he had a problem with (he loved every jew), but rather the shitah. I didn't see this in a sefer, but the point is a true thing. That We need to realize that as Jews we all have one father in heaven and to bring moshiach as the rebbe said in that talk is to live in complete unity. In other words plus amillion to Avid Reader 
Everyone has their own instrument that, when joined together, will bring the most beautiful, pure, and eternal symphony of all Moshiach.

[mclovin]

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars

whats dollars?

[YankyDoodle]

The Rebbe gave out dollars for ppl to give to tzedakah. It served two functions. In addition to the obvious (the mitzvah of tzedakah) it allowed chassidim (as well as tens of thousands of ppl from all walks of life) the opportunity to interact with the Rebbe one-on-one. (The Rebbe for the most part stopped giving yechidus - private audiences - when it became physically impossible to allot enough time for all the ppl who wanted to speak with the Rebbe.) Hence the massive lines - hours long - every Sunday in 770.

[mclovin]

so by dollars he meant private?

[Cbs]

so by dollars he meant private?

whats ur question exactly?
ppl would line on a get a 1 dollar be with a quick 2 word bracha. some would quickly ask their own bakoshos and the rebbe would give another bracha with another dollar. every person was something else. but in order to keep the line flowing the secretaries tried getting ppl  to move forward so u barely had time to ask (besides that the chassidim would never say a word)

[mclovin]

whats ur question exactly?
ppl would line on a get a 1 dollar be with a quick 2 word bracha. some would quickly ask their own bakoshos and the rebbe would give another bracha with another dollar. every person was something else. but in order to keep the line flowing the secretaries tried getting ppl  to move forward so u barely had time to ask (besides that the chassidim would never say a word)

20 minutes has got to be the sukkah question. while it may be heated no one is mentioned by name. IIRC the Rebbe was attacking the question as being provocational and spoke negatively about 'whoever' asked the question and attempted to stir up unrest. I believe if you watch the video the attack is more about the question.

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars

i dont understand what he said in that line. asking if by dollars he meant private vs public. i couldnt really tell what whas going on in the video, ie where/when it happened

[Cbs]

i dont understand what he said in that line. asking if by dollars he meant private vs public. i couldnt really tell what whas going on in the video, ie where/when it happened

oh i see. dollars was considered kinda private. the only thing is that there are videos of lots and lots of "dollar passings" - farbrengen was officially public

[mclovin]

oh i see. dollars was considered kinda private. the only thing is that there are videos of lots and lots of "dollar passings" - farbrengen was officially public

got it. thanks

[Drago]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time.

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

let me first start off with, that i agree with some others here that since everyones got their own opinion etc..itll be very hard to have a normal conversation, and i also tried having conversations with people that fall into the category you're describing and in my eyes there is no use in trying to convince or even discuss opinions with them because the conversation wont go anywhere at all. (hours conversations i mean!)

i will now quote a few things that maybe i can clarify -and some things i wont discuss because some things ppl may take in the wrong way.
1st things first, there is no 2 Chabad Movements. There is one Chabad Movement. The categories you described can be said as "in the Chabad movement there are diff views/perspectives.

#1 - the only people that believe such a thing are and must be (very) crazy. that is against nature for something like that to be and many many people witnessed a levaya, and especially that the Rebbe's health situatuon in the last 2 years before '94 was grave and did not get any better. - i dont think i need to explain it really but if you believe it then you fall into my category of someone i refuse to discuss this matter with.

#2 - this is a tough matter to discuss, and true that most people (if not everyone that doesnt fall into Categoriy #1) believe this. so here is where the 2 views are: theres Meshichistim (we're not discussing #1 meshichistim) and "anti Meshichistim". the main difference is, if the guy will go around publicizing the paraphrase "yechi..." . He who does publicize yechi, does not believe that the rebbe is physically living, by saying Yechi he is pronouncing that the Rebbe is Moshiach and when he says he shall live forever it means, through his "children"/chassidim doing what he wanted from them and following in his path - it spiritually is making him live forever and there is no difference now that there was a physical concealment. and one should not think that  because he was niftar, that the rebbe is less holy and it wont help to ask brachos etc....(this concept is explained in chassidus in depth and length.) and this guy holds that this is what the Rebbe wanted when he said and made big campaigns that we should publicize the Coming Moshiach and how its so close, that we should tell people that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
The "Anti-meshichist" will will not publicize that the Rebbe is Moshiach (A.K.A Yechi) although he may beleive that in his heart, but that is nothing wrong because everyone can have their own belief that they keep to themselves. On the other hand he doesnt disagree with this that the Rebbe is spiritually living forever and by us doing and learning his torah etc.. keeps him "alive" (like ya'akov avinu lo meis). and he obviously will fulfill the campaign of the Rebbe to tell people Moshiach is near, but not discussing who it is, because that is not the point and it can cause conflict.

#3 - im not sure what u mean by embodiment of G-D. so if you will clarify that i can try to explain it.

Another point on #1, that mainly the people that say this stem from the Yeshiva Gedola in Tzfas. and they are a minority although they do make a very large noise, and they will not ever visit the Rebbe's kever for this reason! so that is off my Map.
there are plenty of people in US that practice #2 in both perspectives and regarding #1 those bochurim and few other people mainly come from Tzfas as stated above and they learn or live in Crown Heights becasue the want to be with the Rebbe in his shul!
regarding the Shlit"a , so besides the tzfatim that will obviously write that - so the Meshichistim in #2 will sometimes write that because they dont like to mention the Rebbe passed away because it shows on something less holy and since he's not physically here so people may take the wrong approach at it, so they write Shlit"a
as for the disturbing videos you see, those are tzfatim in #1 mainly, and some Meshichistim in #2 that want to still feel the way it was before '92 and they believe that any minute now the moshiach will come and the Rebbe will walk through the path and they want to be ready for it. but again its mainly #1.
True that in israel its much stronger there, and mainly thats because its easier to do it there because everyone is jewish and can understand whats going on. it practically makes no sense to do what they do in manhattan or else where where majority isnt jewish.
and there are many more tzfatim in israel which go crazy and make lound noises.
1. i think since the Rebbe made a huge campaign about moshiach in the later years and like no other rebbe has done, so it triggered somthing there, and since the Rebbe was so Great in the world  (even in the eyes of other Rebbe's and other chassidim) so it was something very special, and most people thought that since there was so much Moshiach talk etc.. that moshiach was coming then any minute, and couldnt take in the fact, (face the fact) that something like a passing away was possible at that state, and everyone then believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach. so when the passing came about there was a group of people that were dancing and happy because they said forsure moshiach is coming now and from there it spread.

2. Yes but in israel its more publicized

3. i answered that question above

4. i dont want to state my opinion in any of this (i tried to avoid it in this post) for the reason that it will start a major arguement and i dont like to discuss things that have no end to it. here im just stating Facts. - and all i can say is that #1 people have some issues

5. that i dont know and i just hope it doesnt go too much farther, because a lot of this is pushing people away from Chabad for no good reason and a bunch of stupidity.

i hope i clarified the situation for you, even though ive got much more to say but i dont want to discuss.
if you have any questions on this feel free to ask!

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.

[Drago]

My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.

Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!

[Drago]

+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!

If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?

[Drago]

how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.

Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.

[Drago]

Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.