Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148252 times)

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #285 on: January 07, 2013, 06:26:19 PM »
I am loving the passion but as whYME suggested before can we please just keep to answering halachic questions. If anyone in this thread actually wants to accomplish anything let us have an orderly discussion of weather chabad is going against halacha or not. That is really the only thing that matters. Either its wrong or not because if its not wrong then to ask someone to justify a personal feeling that is inline with halacha is pointless and silly IMO.
Thanks JJ

I purposely kept the discussion away from a pure halachik discussion, b/c for every source A, someone will have source B. And it will simply cause a back n' forth that will arrive at no resolution. (It's one one of the beautiful yet frustrating aspects of the halachik process.)

I'm more interested in the sociological background and implications, as well as ppl's personal observations and experiences.

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #286 on: January 07, 2013, 06:30:34 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time. :)

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.
that took a log time to answer! :)
Anyways...

They average non meshichist does not think of the meshichist as non chabad person or from another movement. he may think the guy is nuts. and i didnt say i wouldnt talk to that guy, all i said was i refuse to discuss this matter with such a person (the whole meshichist thing)

The reason why other Rabbeim dont have Yechi said about them is because they had Children and right when they passed away everyone knew who the next Rebbe would be so there was no reason to say yechi. The whole point of Yechi is to say and show how it doesnt end etc...so since the Rebbe didnt have children and there was no upcoming Rebbe after him (usually the child would) so people will say Yechi .

not necessarily most ppl that say yechi (or strong believers) come from Tzfas. i meant to say that there is a large yeshiva of about 400+ students there and since theyre young and loud and have lots of energy so they make a lot of noise. and many of those come to Brooklyn to study in 770 (the Rebbe's Shul) so ppl categorize them as tzfatim. but in any case, no one really challenges them, but on the other hand the anti meshechistim dont usually pay much attention to them - meaning they have different agendas - so it works out that way that they usually dont interact with each other
Regarding Chabad Shluchim you will see that in many places in India and in other countries as well (maybe few cities in america) there are Chabad houses that plaster Yechi all over and they call themselves Shluchim but they are not under the HQ of Chabad shluchim. - they make their own convention every year.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #287 on: January 07, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »
Thanks CBS!
I have to re-read your latest post after I go through all the others.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.

Offline lcyitz

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Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #288 on: January 07, 2013, 06:48:39 PM »
@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist! :)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #289 on: January 07, 2013, 07:11:45 PM »
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #290 on: January 07, 2013, 07:35:03 PM »
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.
Start a new thread please.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #291 on: January 07, 2013, 07:43:28 PM »
Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!
let me try to answer for him:
when he says they are anti he means to say that they dont publicize it or hold of publicizing it, and what they believe is a whole nother story. not everyone says what they beleif and people dont talk about it because its irrelevant and not important. but as Dan said earlier that most Anti's do believe that its very possible that he CAN be moshiach and im saying that some actually believe that.

i think that comparison you are making is totally off - people think of the Rebbe as a Pure Tzaddik and not even the meshichistim think he is the son of G-D.
look back in history at any great tzaddik, are you going to say the same thing about them, that ppl thought he was the son of G-D?

belief is belief. so there really isnt any difference between the israeli meshichist and the american meshichist. the only diff you may see is that one is louder then the next because in israel its more open.

i think your last question has been answered plenty in this thread as far as i can remember from so long ago. but in short, the Rebbe spoke so much about moshiach and said how this is the last generation before moshiach and there was plenty of basis to say he qualified to be moshiach, now that he passed away it doesnt take away anything from before besides the fact that he is not living physically with us, and as Dan said above there are plenty mkorois to say that moshiach can come from the dead. that said why should the lubavitchers think different just because he physically passed away. besides the fact the ppl think theyre rebbe will be moshiach etc   so if you understand why ppl thought that way prior to his passing then you should understand now that to the lubavitchers we dont look at it as any different besides for the physical part.

btw did you read through the whole back and forth posts in this whole thread?

If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?
my guess is not. but i may be wrong.

Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.
this is where the problem starts because many of these rosh kollels simply hate chabad and get it into the brain of these 18 yr olds and they walk away with a small "hatred"
though i have had plenty of friends in the past that have walked away the exact opposite and i was in yeshiva in israel at the time and it seemed they like chabad a lot (unless they were putting up a show :) ) incl. a sibling of yours if im not mistaken!

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.
in my eyes it seemed that it wasnt as prevalent as the Rebbe's and the reason being .....i dont want to get into to start any fights so lets just say many stories ive heard about the rebbe and many stories that i know ppl to testify about the rebbe i have never heard and i dont think anyone has ever heard such stories by many gedolei Hador.

 

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #292 on: January 07, 2013, 07:44:53 PM »
@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist! :)
lol...you not that bad :P

@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.
+100
i had plenty of time back then but now...not so much but since u asked i answered. but i dont think this should continue

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #293 on: January 08, 2013, 02:21:24 AM »
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
The thread lasted from Feb 6 to Feb 10.
That isn't exactly too long of a discussion period.

@JJ, Dan, CBS
I understand the hesitancy to continue the discussion. I'll ask the follow-up questions I have, and if no one chooses to answer, so be it.

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #294 on: January 09, 2013, 09:31:56 AM »
I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #295 on: January 09, 2013, 09:46:38 AM »
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
Miracles, as in supernatural, or as in tefilla which was followed by a refuah?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #296 on: January 09, 2013, 09:55:51 AM »
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #297 on: January 09, 2013, 10:00:30 AM »
Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #298 on: January 09, 2013, 10:01:04 AM »
What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
+1
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #299 on: January 09, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »
+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.
we're getting influenced, American Jews are all getting influenced from each other, it's inevitable.
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