Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148458 times)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #345 on: January 13, 2013, 01:23:07 PM »
Judaism today is VERY different from ANY form of Judaism practiced even 100 years ago, never mind the days of Rashi and the Rishonim....
You mean the majority of Jews don't work on farms and if they are fortunate know how to daven? And musar never happened? Here I thought hashkafa was the same as rashi... Even he was against internet. *end annoyed sarcasm*
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #346 on: January 13, 2013, 02:50:54 PM »
Posting in just shmooze isn't going to help you.  You will stay at 770 :D
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #347 on: January 13, 2013, 02:59:36 PM »
Judaism today is VERY different from ANY form of Judaism practiced even 100 years ago, never mind the days of Rashi and the Rishonim....
Really? in which way?

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #348 on: January 13, 2013, 03:27:40 PM »
Really? in which way?
I've read in the past that Chareidi Judaism is as much of a modern reaction to society changes as is Modern Orthodoxy.
E/t adapts to the times, just in different fashions.

But regardless, I digress...

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #349 on: January 13, 2013, 03:32:42 PM »
Really? in which way?
You mean the majority of Jews don't work on farms and if they are fortunate know how to daven? And musar never happened? Here I thought hashkafa was the same as rashi... Even he was against internet. *end annoyed sarcasm*
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #350 on: January 13, 2013, 04:04:10 PM »

Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #351 on: January 13, 2013, 04:14:51 PM »
Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #352 on: January 13, 2013, 04:53:53 PM »
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

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Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #353 on: January 13, 2013, 05:03:54 PM »
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

L'chaim.

Very well said.

I always feel as though Chassidus began to help being people together and all it does now a days is split people apart.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 05:11:24 PM by sky121 »
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #354 on: January 13, 2013, 05:06:00 PM »
Great post Dan.
I have to ask what you mean with the following.

something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

What was it about the rashbi that set him apart from the other rabbanim at the time?
And not to cast aspersions, but doesn't the gemora say that when he came out of the cave, he was unable to understand how ppl could work and not learn, and as a result, he would have been dangerous to the world? (very rough contours of the story, and I know that he recanted later on)

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #355 on: January 13, 2013, 05:07:17 PM »
I always feel as though Chassidus began to help being people together and all it does now a days it split people apart.
It's a problem with all movements that become too comfortable. They need to find an outlet for their energy, and often, it goes into self-destructive behavior.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #356 on: January 13, 2013, 05:15:12 PM »
Great post Dan.
I have to ask what you mean with the following.

What was it about the rashbi that set him apart from the other rabbanim at the time?
And not to cast aspersions, but doesn't the gemora say that when he came out of the cave, he was unable to understand how ppl could work and not learn, and as a result, he would have been dangerous to the world? (very rough contours of the story, and I know that he recanted later on)

I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #357 on: January 13, 2013, 05:18:01 PM »
"The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants."

These concepts are all great but where not nischadesh by the chassidim, Dovid hamelech requested that tehilim should have the value of negoim and ohalos, Teshuva meahava is a posuk in the torah, as is serving hashem out of love.
What exactly Chassidus is about and why it came about is a very deep and complex topic. Most Chassidim will not be able to sum up what chassidus is if you corner them...
The point I want to bring out is that the next time you see a chabadsker say "missnaged" and then spit in disgust, remember that until the chassidus movement started all our ancestors were Just simple Jews and not part of any specific movement. Today the non chassidim are just doing their thing and have no interest in hating anyone. We all live in peace and love of all Jews. Since the times of the chofetz chaim there has been peace.
 (Unless you get up in their face that is..)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #358 on: January 13, 2013, 05:20:25 PM »


These concepts are all great but where not nischadesh by the chassidim, Dovid hamelech requested that tehilim should have the value of negoim and ohalos, Teshuva meahava is a posuk in the torah, as is serving hashem out of love.
What exactly Chassidus is about and why it came about is a very deep and complex topic. Most Chassidim will not be able to sum up what chassidus is if you corner them...

That is what Chassidim have been telling their Misnagdim for years, "We were not Mechadesh anything, we just revived some of the things which were long forgotten"
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #359 on: January 13, 2013, 05:26:27 PM »
Oh, Kum baya  ;D