Messianism among Lubavitch

[Dan]

That is what Chassidim have been telling their Misnagdim for years, "We were not Mechadesh anything, we just revived some of the things which were long forgotten"

+1,000,000

The point I want to bring out is that the next time you see a chabadsker say "missnaged" and then spit in disgust, remember that until the chassidus movement started all our ancestors were Just simple Jews and not part of any specific movement. Today the non chassidim are just doing their thing and have no interest in hating anyone. We all live in peace and love of all Jews. Since the times of the chofetz chaim there has been peace.

Spit in disgust? I've never seen that.

And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

[sky121]

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

+100


        At the end of the day there is hate and intolerance towards people who live their lives different than yourself.
Whether it be Lubavitch, Yeshivish, Chassidish, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Charedi, Daati, etc.

And even within those groups themselves you have different "groups" of people hating on each other for their differences.  And it's all in the name of religion but honestly it's not even all about religion at all.

[churnbabychurn]

You will never see normal litvishe yidden showing hate today towards chassidim in general.
Did Chabad and the rebbe do anything to earn disrespect is a whole other story.
I know that on this particular topic we both have very strong feelings so I dont want to go there.
Btw, In your case as a child in school, your rebbyim should have shown more sensitivity knowing that they had a talmid fro a chabadsker home in the class. Indeed it must have been painful and confusing for you at the time, I can only imagine.
 Hopefully by now you can appreciate that there are many people who just will never come to terms with the chabadsker rebbeh and the negative thing they think about him. On this we will just disagree.

[Cbs]

In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision

L'chaim.

Dan ע"ד

And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

apparantly over the years things got way better though, since i went to the same school and never had an issue from kids or rabbeim, if anything they respected it. - my 4th grade teacher even added the Rebbe to the "rabbeim pins" he used to make, when i came to the class
and until today if i ever meet the principals etc..they re very respectful.
on the other hand i think the otehr litvishe school down the block had some problems with chabad.

[Dan]

+100


        At the end of the day there is hate and intolerance towards people who live their lives different than yourself.
Whether it be Lubavitch, Yeshivish, Chassidish, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Charedi, Daati, etc.

And even within those groups themselves you have different "groups" of people hating on each other for their differences.  And it's all in the name of religion but honestly it's not even all about religion at all.

Sad but true.

Btw, In your case as a child in school, your rebbyim should have shown more sensitivity knowing that they had a talmid fro a chabadsker home in the class. Indeed it must have been painful and confusing for you at the time, I can only imagine.
 Hopefully by now you can appreciate that there are many people who just will never come to terms with the chabadsker rebbeh and the negative thing they think about him. On this we will just disagree.

Why should rabayim have been more sensitive b/c a lubab was in the class?
Truth is at that point my father was not yet a full blown lubab and so they probably had no idea, but why should L"H and making fun of tzadikim only apply in front of people who revere them?

Yes it was painful, but I moved on.  I don't bear any ill will and it's not something that ever comes up in my daily life.  It's threads like these that are the only place it comes up.

But the fact that there among the people who hate Chabad, 99% of them have been brainwashed from hearing things that have been so twisted (as quite frankly it seems that you are) and untrue by people with an agenda that I just feel bad that they were mekabel such loshon harah...
Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person

[Cbs]

Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person

thats when all the good bull shoves happen at chabad (in cle)

[chaimmayer]

You will never see normal litvishe yidden showing hate today towards chassidim in general.

-100
They are surely more tolerated but they get made fun of plenty

[churnbabychurn]

Sad but true.
Why should rabayim have been more sensitive b/c a lubab was in the class?
Truth is at that point my father was not yet a full blown lubab and so they probably had no idea, but why should L"H and making fun of tzadikim only apply in front of people who revere them?

Yes it was painful, but I moved on.  I don't bear any ill will and it's not something that ever comes up in my daily life.  It's threads like these that are the only place it comes up.

But the fact that there among the people who hate Chabad, 99% of them have been brainwashed from hearing things that have been so twisted (as quite frankly it seems that you are) and untrue by people with an agenda that I just feel bad that they were mekabel such loshon harah...
Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person

[Drago]

I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.

Agreed, but was that such a revolutionary idea at the time?
After all, many if not most of the rabbanim in the gemara held jobs and interacted with the public. What set Rashbi apart.

[skyguy918]

I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.

That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.

[Achas Veachas]

That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.

+1 thanks for clarifying.

[Lamdan]

In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple. This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision

L'chaim.

I don't think calling Reb Shach, our gadol hador, derogatory names is gonna help litvaks overcome their sinas "chinam". BTW, I personally don't hate Lubavitchers, I honestly love them, I just have some major problems with their ideology, but it's pointless to discuss those issues, I'm not changing anyones mind either way.


BTW, read the Alter Rebbe's children's hakdama to Shulchan Aruch Harav, ( I happen to have read it this past shabbos), take out shneur zalman and put in eliyahu, and you would think the Gra's children wrote it. It's unbelievable the emphasis he made on Torah!

[Drago]

And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

Do you know from your parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?

[Achas Veachas]

Do you know from you parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?

No difference. In the 70s and 80s it was Kiruv and Mivtzoim.

[Dan]

Do you know from you parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?

It most definitely existed then as well.  Anti-Chabad sentiment is very ingrained.

[Drago]

That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.

I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.

[Drago]

No difference. In the 70s and 80s it was Kiruv and Mivtzoim.

Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?

[Achas Veachas]

Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?

Yes, No. Go figure...

[skyguy918]

I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.

Agreed, but was that such a revolutionary idea at the time?
After all, many if not most of the rabbanim in the gemara held jobs and interacted with the public. What set Rashbi apart.

Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.

[Lamdan]

Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?

Don't trust what Lubavitchers say about Litvaks. Ask an honest Litvak.

They were against certain aspects of Kiruv (mingling etc.) but that feeling has definitely been more moderate lately.
The feelings against Lubavitch's actions and ideology definitely existed even between the World Wars, but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.