Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146197 times)

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8147
  • Total likes: 18
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #375 on: January 14, 2013, 01:12:14 PM »
That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.
I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8147
  • Total likes: 18
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #376 on: January 14, 2013, 01:13:06 PM »
No difference. In the 70s and 80s it was Kiruv and Mivtzoim.
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4223
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #377 on: January 14, 2013, 01:40:59 PM »
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?
Yes, No. Go figure...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2804
  • Total likes: 149
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #378 on: January 14, 2013, 03:53:20 PM »
I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.
Agreed, but was that such a revolutionary idea at the time?
After all, many if not most of the rabbanim in the gemara held jobs and interacted with the public. What set Rashbi apart.

Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #379 on: January 14, 2013, 04:02:32 PM »
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?
Don't trust what Lubavitchers say about Litvaks. Ask an honest Litvak.

They were against certain aspects of Kiruv (mingling etc.) but that feeling has definitely been more moderate lately.
The feelings against Lubavitch's actions and ideology definitely existed even between the World Wars, but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8147
  • Total likes: 18
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #380 on: January 14, 2013, 04:03:15 PM »
Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.
Nothing about him accepting a job, but a change in his shitta. :)
I'll try to find it tomorrow.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53856
  • Total likes: 2476
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #381 on: January 14, 2013, 04:05:16 PM »
but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #382 on: January 14, 2013, 04:06:30 PM »
It most definitely existed then as well.  Anti-Chabad sentiment is very ingrained.
Stop trying to paint the Anti- Chabad sentiment as Sinah or Sinas Chinam, even if it makes you feel more comftorable. The sentiment is because of major problems the Litveshe have with Chabad's hashkafa and actions.
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #383 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:01 PM »
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
From who? I hang around older Chashuve Litveshe Rabbanim all day, believe it or not some of them are open minded and honest, and they know the history very well. They are not trying to defend themselves, in fact they would rather if the Chofetz Chaim was as against Chabad as they are, they're just saying the facts. Don't -1 a field you're simply not qualified to talk about - litveshe history.
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53856
  • Total likes: 2476
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #384 on: January 14, 2013, 04:10:14 PM »
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chabad chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.   The rest is just built on top of that.
And yes, it has been going on in America since the rabbeim came here.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #385 on: January 14, 2013, 04:15:42 PM »
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.  The rest is just built on top of that.
That may be the lubavitcher view of the litveshe sentiment, but it's pure BS (to quote you). It's not hatred, the word "hatred" just makes you feel comfortable, mature litvacks do not hate lubavitchers, maybe the kids in your elementary school did, but that's how kids think. It's a strong ideological opposition, a very very strong ideological opposition, if you want to preceive that as hatred, go ahead. I am a kalte litvak, from a crowd that has strong ideological opposition to lubavitch, but I love you - Dan, like a brother from another mother (mushy). 
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53856
  • Total likes: 2476
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #386 on: January 14, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #387 on: January 14, 2013, 04:21:53 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser

Online jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 10794
  • Total likes: 986
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8015
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #388 on: January 14, 2013, 04:22:38 PM »
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?

ETA- your statement that Dan can't talk about litvish history is silly. 1. He is talking about chabad history and its dealings with others. 2. It's like any history if your not greek you can't talk about the history of greece?  :o 3. If neither of you were there you'd have the same authority to talk about it as you please. 4. History always has 2 sides. And even when something happening the 2 sides see it different, so could be your both right just from different perspectives.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:26:44 PM by jj1000 »
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline Lamdan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 749
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #389 on: January 14, 2013, 04:25:59 PM »
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate? I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate. And do we really have to talk about something we're clueless about like the fights 200 years ago. let's talk about the last 50 years - where we're actually not clueless.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:29:17 PM by Lamdan »
DD.com Main Site Deals 0 = DDF Loser