Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 394536 times)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #400 on: January 15, 2013, 09:07:05 AM »
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.
What's the connection between the 2? ::)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #401 on: January 15, 2013, 09:09:51 AM »
What's the connection between the 2? ::)
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #402 on: January 15, 2013, 09:25:28 AM »
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..
The fact that the Rebbe was arrested twice is well documented. The fact that it was a Messirah by Missnagdim is also well documented. The original Messirah papers are still around and they have been published extensively.
The fact that LATER people realized the Alter Rebbe's greatness not only in Chassidus but also in 'Nigleh' only highlights a point made earlier; that if the leaders of the Missnagdim in THAT generation would have done their due duty of ושאלת ודרשת וחקרת היטב it would have saved much Tza'ar and Ogmas Nefesh for generations to come.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #403 on: January 15, 2013, 09:28:36 AM »
...and actually you do raise a good point! Starting from approximately the days of the Tzemach Tzedek, the Hisnagdus has pretty much died down, it was only during the WWII and subsequent events that certain individuals felt a need to bring it back up ved"l

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #404 on: January 15, 2013, 09:57:08 AM »
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.


You managed to find a nut. There are nuts in every sect btw thought Tzfat does seem to be blessed disproportionately.
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Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #405 on: January 15, 2013, 10:01:05 AM »
that if the leaders of the Missnagdim in THAT generation would have done their due duty of ושאלת ודרשת וחקרת היטב it would have saved much Tza'ar and Ogmas Nefesh for generations to come.
do you really think that you, or any other lubavitcher, including the rebbe when he was alive, is capable of judging how the gaon conducted himself?   really?       would you like to offer some of your insights on rashi and the ramban next?  or maybe rashbi?          stick to the last 50 years where people can actually pretend to have an understanding of what went on.   

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #406 on: January 15, 2013, 10:05:46 AM »
do you really think that you, or any other lubavitcher, including the rebbe when he was alive, is capable of judging how the gaon conducted himself?   really?       would you like to offer some of your insights on rashi and the ramban next?  or maybe rashbi?          stick to the last 50 years where people can actually pretend to have an understanding of what went on.   
No I do not think I can judge people who lived 200 years ago (i can't even judge people who are around today properly) Everything i said was based on letters the Alter Rebbe sent to Reb Mendel Horodoker and R' Avraham Kalisker A"H in Eretz Yisroel. As well as other sources from that time

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #407 on: January 15, 2013, 10:44:10 AM »
I'm asking this to the chabadnikim here.
When I see seforim written after the Rebbe passed away and it refers to him as Shlita and not ZT"L, does it mean it was written by a nut, or is it b/c he is still 'alive' through his teachings?

And if it's the latter, do they do this with all their rabonnim?

(My bad if this was asked before/)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #408 on: January 15, 2013, 10:54:11 AM »
You managed to find a nut. There are nuts in every sect btw thought Tzfat does seem to be blessed disproportionately.
There was a group of elokistim in Australia. They were put into charem by the Chabad beis din, as would be anyone else who believes in equating the Rebbe and Hashem.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #409 on: January 15, 2013, 11:16:52 AM »
elokistim
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #410 on: January 15, 2013, 11:19:18 AM »
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?
No influence. I've never even met one.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #411 on: January 15, 2013, 11:21:36 AM »
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?
AFAIK they don't have much influence in 770, in fact other than this group in Oz and a 1 crazy guy that used to live in Tzfas I never heard of any other reports

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #412 on: January 15, 2013, 11:52:33 AM »
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true. (maybe its a couple of nuts).Is there a photo of the rebbeh in the shul? Is it on the mizrach wall?
Dunno, but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #413 on: January 15, 2013, 11:55:24 AM »
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true.
There are no pictures of the Rebbe hanging anywhere in 770

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #414 on: January 15, 2013, 11:56:51 AM »
There are no pictures of the Rebbe hanging anywhere in 770
Interesting, Im kinda pleasantly surprised

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #415 on: January 15, 2013, 11:57:32 AM »
but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
I wish everyone would read Rabbi Rappaports book in response to Berger.  The Messiah Problem: Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination (Ilford 2002)

He has so much solid information and sources in halacha it makes this whole thread a joke.

And he talks about other chassidim that do more extreme things.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #416 on: January 15, 2013, 12:00:12 PM »
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true. (maybe its a couple of nuts).Is there a photo of the rebbeh in the shul? Is it on the mizrach wall?
Dunno, but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
Sad how misinformed you are and willing to accept l"h/rumors like that.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #417 on: January 15, 2013, 12:04:00 PM »
Interesting, Im kinda pleasantly surprised
Surprised? See Kitzur Shu"a Siman 18 Se'If 8.

In general whenever you hear a rumor (about anyone, mikal Shekein about an Eidah Shleimah BeYisroel) that seems to crazy to be true. Instead of assuming that it may be true how about assume it isn't true unless proven otherwise?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #418 on: January 15, 2013, 12:04:56 PM »
I wish everyone would read Rabbi Rappaports book in response to Berger.  The Messiah Problem: Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination (Ilford 2002)

He has so much solid information and sources in halacha it makes this whole thread a joke.

And he talks about other chassidim that do more extreme things.
To be honest, I tried....
BTW it's been out of print and can not be had for money FWIH

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #419 on: January 15, 2013, 12:20:26 PM »
To be honest, I tried....
BTW it's been out of print and can not be had for money FWIH
I know :( it is unfortunate. Just have to know the right people ;) A book like that I wish he just allowed someone to scan it and put it online. (They do sell picture of the Rebbe right when you walk into the lower part of 770 btw.)
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