Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 195950 times)

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #420 on: January 15, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »
I know :( it is unfortunate. Just have to know the right people ;) A book like that I wish he just allowed someone to scan it and put it online.
You're right but it's definitely NOT an easy read. It's not a book I can give to a friend and ask him to read it Shabbos after his Cholent nap...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #421 on: January 15, 2013, 12:33:04 PM »
I do have a serious question, I wonder if anyone can provide a reasonable response.
Why does chabad currently not have a rebbe? I understand that the last rebbe didnt have children, but isnt Chasidus all about having a rebbe? Why cant they appoint a rebbe? You want to bring up your children as chassidim, but of whom? Something is wrong with the relationship of the chabad chasidim to the late rebbe if they cannot or will not find and appoint a replacement.


Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #422 on: January 15, 2013, 12:35:27 PM »
I do have a serious question, I wonder if anyone can provide a reasonable response.
Why does chabad currently not have a rebbe? I understand that the last rebbe didnt have children, but isnt Chasidus all about having a rebbe? Why cant they appoint a rebbe? You want to bring up your children as chassidim, but of whom? Something is wrong with the relationship of the chabad chasidim to the late rebbe if they cannot or will not find and appoint a replacement.


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/172,1285/Why-doesnt-Chabad-select-a-new-Rebbe.html
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Offline ganizzy

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #423 on: January 15, 2013, 12:46:07 PM »
i hate to break it to you, but theres plenty of hate.
during ww11, one of the litvisher rabbonim in america that was in charge of getting food and supplies to europe, refused to send stuff to lubavitcher bochrim.

heard firsthand from someone that worked in the office


this discussion reminds me of something that happened in elementary - about 5th or 6th grade
my school was lubavitch, but was the only frum seperated schhol in the city so everyone went there

the daughter of the litvish rav was in my class and always had a snide comment about chabad (mostly from her father)
after one comment too many, one of the girls (a baal tshuva family, at that point i dont know how strongly her family identified with chabad) said - your father is a rav and yet he cant even fulfill the one basic mitzvah of ahavas yisrael. the girl had a flip attack and couldnt believe people were attacking her father, so unfounded, not fair....
she couldnt see that constantly bashing chabad (even jokingly) is the opposite of ahavas yisrael

Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #424 on: January 15, 2013, 01:34:35 PM »
No I do not think I can judge people who lived 200 years ago (i can't even judge people who are around today properly) Everything i said was based on letters the Alter Rebbe sent to Reb Mendel Horodoker and R' Avraham Kalisker A"H in Eretz Yisroel. As well as other sources from that time
did you read the letters yourself?  are you familiar with the context of the letters and exactly who and what situations they're referring to?  are you translating exactly what the baal hatanyah said, or giving a loose translation based on your/others interpretation of it?      "other sources" is vague and meaningless                     

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #425 on: January 15, 2013, 01:45:00 PM »
did you read the letters yourself?  are you familiar with the context of the letters and exactly who and what situations they're referring to?  are you translating exactly what the baal hatanyah said, or giving a loose translation based on your/others interpretation of it?      "other sources" is vague and meaningless                     
yes I did, in the letter The Alter Rebbe says that he went to Vilna to try and talk with the Gaon but those around the Gaon would not allow the meeting to happen. There are many more letters who anyone who deals with the history of that time is familiar with. These things aren't secrets they are out in the open and anyone can access them.
To say that there was no Hisnagdus in the days of the GR'A is laughable at least. I'm surprised we are arguing about it.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #426 on: January 15, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/172,1285/Why-doesnt-Chabad-select-a-new-Rebbe.html
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #427 on: January 15, 2013, 02:08:57 PM »
There is a torah journal called Yeshurun, in a few of their volumes they have extensive research into the veracity of the alter rebbe's letters. I never read them, but IIRC the conclusion is that rubam sheker. I'm not saying they're right, just giving a mareh makom to the intellectually honest. 
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #428 on: January 15, 2013, 02:11:51 PM »
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?

You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:26:41 PM by Dan »
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #429 on: January 15, 2013, 02:12:10 PM »
There is a torah journal called Yeshurun, in a few of their volumes they have extensive research into the veracity of the alter rebbe's letters. I never read them, but IIRC the conclusion is that rubam sheker. I'm not saying they're right, just giving a mareh makom to the intellectually honest. 
Are you talking about the Alter Rebbe's letter or about the Charson Genizah (A collection of letters of the ba'al Shem Tov and his students over which there is a controversy)?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #430 on: January 15, 2013, 02:13:45 PM »
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?
"The leadership of world Jewry was given to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and he fulfilled that mission to the maximum. The entire people of Israel were his concern, and a deep concern. Jews in every corner of the world, no matter how forsaken and no matter how small in number, were on his mind and in his heart and soul." -Rabbi Zev Segal, currently with the Memorial Foundation for Jewish Culture in New York City, is a former President of the Rabbinical Council of America and spiritual leader of the Young Israel of Newark.

A leader leads whether people follow or not. And he definitely was requested to lead by Jews around the world so I don't see a problem with that statement.

ETA- Reference to Rabbi Segal's letter. http://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/395797 It is a beautiful read, and from a non-lubab, so you don't have to throw it out after the first paragraph.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:18:28 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #431 on: January 15, 2013, 02:20:59 PM »
"Throughout Jewish history there were great leaders, but I know of no precedent, for one who transformed, visibly and substantively every single Jewish community in the world including many parts of the world that never had a Jewish community before."
- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/1691120/jewish/Transcript-Chief-Rabbi-Sacks-Highlights-Rebbes-Inspiring-Charge.htm
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #432 on: January 15, 2013, 02:29:07 PM »
You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon

Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #433 on: January 15, 2013, 02:30:05 PM »
yes I did, in the letter The Alter Rebbe says that he went to Vilna to try and talk with the Gaon but those around the Gaon would not allow the meeting to happen. There are many more letters who anyone who deals with the history of that time is familiar with. These things aren't secrets they are out in the open and anyone can access them.
To say that there was no Hisnagdus in the days of the GR'A is laughable at least. I'm surprised we are arguing about it.
it's well known and documented that the alter rebbe came to see the gaon to have the chairem taken off but was not received.   we were not arguing about that.     you claimed that the alter rebbe writes that the gaon was supposedly lacking in his duty regarding his thoughts on chassidus or some such.        i find it hard to believe that someone as big as the baal hatanya would say anything negative about the gaon.    i would think it's from later followers and zealots who have some major lackings that put words in his mouth, so to speak.       so again, do you have a verified letter of the baal hatanyah where he makes such statements?   if so, please quote. 

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #434 on: January 15, 2013, 02:32:11 PM »
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
In every generation there is a nosi, someone who would qualify to be moshiach should the generation merit it.
I'm not saying the Rebbe was Moshe Rabbeinu as I'm not saying our generation was the one that left Mitzrayim. 
I'm saying he is a nosi in our generation as was Moshe in his generation.

Feel free to disagree with this aspect of chabad ideology, but that's the answer to your question.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #435 on: January 15, 2013, 02:32:32 PM »
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
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Offline yare

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #436 on: January 15, 2013, 02:33:18 PM »
You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.

would you say if aish hatorah effected the most jews and diversity of people through their kiruv that that made rav noach weinberg the nasi hador?         or "same as Moshe Rabbeinu"?         

roiv bnei torah in the velt held rav shach to be gadol hador.  that was never the case for the rebbe.  only his chassidus and a lot of not frum yidden/balei teshuva, that didn't really know much about yiddishkeit bichlal, certainly not who's qualified to be the "nasi hador".     

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #437 on: January 15, 2013, 02:38:17 PM »
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.
All leaders of klall yisroel in every generation served the kllal were respected and are remembered but the next generation always took over and continued the chain of leadership for each generation, R shach is not currently a leader. Neither the rebbe.
The only leader in history that has unique "staying power" is mosheh rabeinu, to set yourselves up that this rebbe is more unique a leader than say the baal hatanya is silly.
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #438 on: January 15, 2013, 02:39:50 PM »
I have finally read through this entire thread and would like to add/clarify a few things. I hope it is coherent enough and not to disorganized...  First I would like to further emphasize the distinction some have tried to make between hate and strong disagreement and disapproval of a certain ideology.  While there are always people who will turn a purely shem shamayin ideeoligical battle into a hateful immature fight that does not discredit the ones who are sincere about their belief in the ideology being wrong yet love those who believe in it because they are Jews.  It is perfectly understandable that someone from the lubavitch perspective will have strong emotional dislike and intellectual disagreement for what Rav Shach said.  On the other hand, from an intellectual viewpoint can you understand that a gadol can feel that there are people who have views and haskafas that are counter to Torah haskafah yet they are being confused as acceptable positions.  The gadol therefore feels he needs to take a very strong stance to counter this perceived negative influence. The gadol also feels that there is a person who is responsible for it and he must be discredited lshem shamayim? (i am not saying it is right in this case nor whether you should agree, nor that you shouldn't be upset about it, I am just saying it is possible for a such a position to exist about something and if a gadol feels it is true that it makes sense that he would act that way and not God forbid be a rasha). To say that the Rebbe would never do such thing seems a little funny-why not? If he felt that a different segment of Judaism was leading people down the wrong path shouldn't he come out very strongly and do what is necessary to stop distance it from his understanding of acceptable torah hashkafa?
Second, Dan is correct in stating that the strong disagreement (liberal substitute for hate- see my first point) existed before messianism.  However, it is the same issue that many gedolim were concerned about in the Lubavitch movement that they believe manifested itself in Messianism.  As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".
Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin). 

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #439 on: January 15, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »
Great debate skills! I am impressed.
I elaborated, sorry, that automatic  :D