Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 148397 times)

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #465 on: January 15, 2013, 04:12:45 PM »
the first video is so disturbing and pathetic.  :'(
That's probably the only statement of yours in this thread which I agree with.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #466 on: January 15, 2013, 04:13:17 PM »
That's probably the only statement of yours in this thread which I agree with.
+1
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #467 on: January 15, 2013, 04:13:26 PM »
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #468 on: January 15, 2013, 04:14:46 PM »
Say for arguments sake you are correct, that every generation has a "nosi/moshiach". If you believe that the rebbe passed away ~20 years ago, who is the current Nosi? Who is your leader, who is your Nosi?
If you tell me that you believe that its still the rebbe, as the Nosi can be from the dead too, surly you would agree that there much greater leaders amongst the dead. Why not proclaim the  Alter Rebbe Nosi/Moshiach?
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #469 on: January 15, 2013, 04:18:54 PM »
Your grandkids will not be chassidim. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #470 on: January 15, 2013, 04:19:25 PM »
Your grandkids will not be chassidim. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Are there no Breslov Chassidim remaining?
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #471 on: January 15, 2013, 04:26:14 PM »
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #472 on: January 15, 2013, 04:27:26 PM »
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

And why do I think R. Shach wouldn't have approved of this.
http://www.vosizneias.com/post/read/9801

Or R. Elyashiv of this
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=6888

At least the Chabad rabbi may have done good with his appearance.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #473 on: January 15, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?
Yes we want our children to have a Real Rebbe (we want to have a Real Rebbe), Haven't found one yet to appoint.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #474 on: January 15, 2013, 04:30:41 PM »
Yes we want our children to have a Real Rebbe (we want  to have a Real Rebbe), Haven't found one yet to appoint.
Il do it ;D

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #475 on: January 15, 2013, 04:31:45 PM »
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.
B. There is no Lubavitcher in the world who would accept upon himself to succeed the Rebbe.
C. The Rebbe became Rebbe only after a year of pleading from Chassidim worldwide.  There is no popular demand for any person to become Rebbe today.
D. Even if such a person existed the vast majority would not accept him, thus rendering it pointless.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #476 on: January 15, 2013, 04:33:45 PM »
Il do it ;D
In that case I'll become Ois Lubavitch ;D
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #477 on: January 15, 2013, 04:44:11 PM »
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.
B. There is no Lubavitcher in the world who would accept upon himself to succeed the Rebbe.
C. The Rebbe became Rebbe only after a year of pleading from Chassidim worldwide.  There is no popular demand for any person to become Rebbe today.
D. Even if such a person existed the vast majority would not accept him, thus rendering it pointless.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.
But surely you understand the danger in saying that we won't have an active leader, but that we will rely on our best understanding of the mesora he left us with.
It can ultimately lead to anarchy, and that is exactly what's happening with all these wackos.
And it will only get worse...

Besides, doesn't it say somewhere that Yiftach b'doro is like shmuel b'doro (I know I'm messing up the phrase, but I'm on hold w/ cs). Even if a leader of a generation doesn't match up with previous leaders, it's not an excuse to choose to not have a leader.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #478 on: January 15, 2013, 04:50:19 PM »
The wackos are not in a position of power and do not control the shlichus operation or the chabad movement.  They're wackos and having a new leader won't get rid of them.  Though the courts may evict them eventually.  They do make for great fodder amongst those who anyway despise chabad, but haters will hate.

We have rabbonim and mashpi'im that can guide us, but there never will be another chabad Rebbe for the reasons I already outlined.
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Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #479 on: January 15, 2013, 04:50:46 PM »
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

I think he would.