Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146360 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #630 on: January 16, 2013, 02:22:38 PM »
you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.
You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #631 on: January 16, 2013, 02:23:37 PM »
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.


@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #632 on: January 16, 2013, 02:25:05 PM »
Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?
+1.
And if you do then you'll need to stop eating/davening with many chasidim.  Even if they don't publicize it like the chabad meshichistim do.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #633 on: January 16, 2013, 02:25:35 PM »
You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.
sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #634 on: January 16, 2013, 02:25:48 PM »
@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #635 on: January 16, 2013, 02:27:18 PM »
sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.
How so?
We've got Satmar and Belz on record for having the same beliefs that their Rebbe and leader that they follow is moshiach.
The difference is in the publication.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #636 on: January 16, 2013, 02:28:06 PM »
In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.
Well when someone makes claims in one case and says it with such strong language then it casts doubts on all else he says unless he admits to being "delusional" in that case. Especially when he'd of known the facts had he actually read this thread.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #637 on: January 16, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »
Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

And 3 more places from earlier this thread.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.gif image hosting

I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 


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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #638 on: January 16, 2013, 02:39:03 PM »
And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
@Lamdan and others- People didn't make a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Everyone did believe he was moshiach. But there is no such thing as moshiach vaday until the beis hamikdash is rebuilt. Just like you say most people don't think about who moshiach is, chabad people before gimmel tamuz didn't think about making a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Now that it's a bigger issue and being dissected, it comes out that what everyone besides the tzfatim really believed was he was/is for sure a chezkas moshiach.

This is all tied into what WhyMe pointed out I believe
Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?
I'm sure you'll claim I'm backtracking and changing the past, and that you know cuz you spoke to people then.

But if you want an answer and I have spoken to people who were there before gimmel tamuz then this will be a satisfying explanation. If you don't want an answer/explanation, then feel free to ignore this post.

ETA- I'd equate before gimmel tammuz beliefs to similar ones of Rabbi Akiva about Bar Kochba. (Who yes was murdered insert diyuk in rambam here;) )
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #639 on: January 16, 2013, 02:40:54 PM »
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #640 on: January 16, 2013, 02:41:34 PM »
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?
Read earlier in this thread. It's been answered.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #641 on: January 16, 2013, 02:43:49 PM »
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #642 on: January 16, 2013, 02:44:52 PM »
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?
And the circle turns once again...

How many times was this already answered in this thread?

The Alter Rebbe or any other Tzaddik who ever lived wasn't our Rebbe.
I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #643 on: January 16, 2013, 02:44:58 PM »
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?

Are you really going to make me quote it? Dan quoted his own explanation in the past couple days. IIRC it was in response to you asking this question.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #644 on: January 16, 2013, 02:48:05 PM »
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?
Because he was ours.  Same goes for the Belz story with their Rebbe.  Moshiach goes by the generation.
As there hasn't been a new Rebbe the children now can choose to adopt him as Rebbe based on his teachings or not, that's their choice.
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