Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 145287 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #690 on: January 16, 2013, 03:44:50 PM »
From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)

"Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo brought up the issue in 1984 by publishing a booklet declaring Schneerson to be the Messiah.[25] Schneerson responded by writing "It has come to pass that because of his [Wolpo's] activities ... hundreds of Jews have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality. It appeared to some that the Rebbe finally approved of the declaration of the Rebbe as Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated Yechi also on the hebrew date of the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."[26]

In fact, however, several months later on the 4th Cheshvan 5752, at a farbrengen (Chassidic gathering) on Shabbat Parshat No'ach, the Rebbe publicly admonished those who were singing that song. He threatened to leave the farbrengen, and only stayed so that it would not dissipate (source cited below in note 67)."

@chabad
Another question. When I see ppl wearing the yechi adonaini kippas, does that mean that they from from a more meshicist background, or do the regular lubavitchers wear them also?
Thanks for the history lesson.

Only meshichists wear them.  They believe that it will hasten the coming of moshiach.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #691 on: January 16, 2013, 03:47:11 PM »
This has all been covered ad nasueum, read the thread. But in short.
1. There is noone capable or willing too take over.
2. Is pure BS drivel. Go study in a chabad yeshiva for a week.
3. Read the thread, I'm not tacking this BS another time.

1) My issue isn't "I know who should be your rabbi and you aren't appointing him". It is:
Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.


2) In the chabad yeshiva - do the current gedolei hador come and secretly visit? B/c if not you haven't answered the question of why don't they go shake their hands the way the rest of klal yisroel does.

3) Again, should just make you a bit uncomfortable when paired together with the fact that there is no current Rav that you are relying on anything but very accepted stuff.  The idea that mashiach can be a figure from Jewish History is certainly not mainstream.

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #692 on: January 16, 2013, 03:47:14 PM »
Stop mischaracterizing what this is.

I never compared it to any of the movements. I'm simply explaining why ppl would be concerned, b/c when these things become unchecked, they become uncontrollable.
Listen, Judaism has a gezairah for almost every little halachik detail in life. It shouldn't come as a surprise that s/t this unique would cause ppl to want to create boundaries to control it as well.

2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.
In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #693 on: January 16, 2013, 03:47:21 PM »
1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.
You seem very earnest in your questions unlike many here. So although most were answered in this thread I will attempt to answer them somewhat here just for you.

 1. Chabad has their rabonim, others have their rabonim. Same way Chabad doesn't eat chalav stam ecen though many rabonim say it's ok.

2. Says who? That is a bad stereotype. Besides that there is so much to learn from within Chabad itself which could take a lifetime, why wouldn't the focus be from their own teachers? If you learn in one school why wouldn't you give that school your focus?

3. Mostly this thread was defending a concept as not being kfira, by asking this question you are agreeing that the ideology has a source in halacha, you just want to know why to choose that source. Like in number 1. Chabad has their rabbanim and they can choose where a halacha comes from. The idea of moshiach from the dead is not a daily topic of old, so like most modern halachas there isn't necessarily a handed down mesorah of who to follow, hence a Rav I believe has some room in this matter to find his own source. Do you have a mesorah fro  your zayde moshiach must come from the living. I'd be fascinated to see it.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #694 on: January 16, 2013, 03:48:24 PM »
all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.
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Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #695 on: January 16, 2013, 03:50:34 PM »
all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #696 on: January 16, 2013, 03:51:34 PM »
In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.
You met a wacko, unfortunately they make a lot of noise and there's not much anyone can do about them.
To be perfectly clear: Chabad HAS NO SUCH GOALS.
The only goals we have are the ones our Rabbeim and the BS"T gave us.  To make this world a dwelling for hashem by spreading chassidus and getting people to do more mitzvos and that is what will hasten moshiach's coming.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #697 on: January 16, 2013, 03:52:36 PM »
You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.
It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #698 on: January 16, 2013, 03:58:22 PM »
It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #699 on: January 16, 2013, 03:58:52 PM »
there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan

you are saying they are all meshichists?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #700 on: January 16, 2013, 03:59:29 PM »
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
Neither does Lubavitch. Maybe now are getting somewhere. Nor is any of this even close to the surface of what chassidis is all about, or the purpose of it.

ETA- In my 8 years of yeshiva I heard talks of the Rebbe being moshiach from my Rebeim close to nil. Chassidis shiurim I heard hours every day. This is the saddest part to me. People thinking this is an essential part of chabad.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #701 on: January 16, 2013, 04:01:09 PM »
From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)
On reading through the whole thing, it's definitely tilted against the chabad side since it only quotes from the rabbi's against the meshicist movement.

Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #702 on: January 16, 2013, 04:01:48 PM »
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 04:07:28 PM by Side incomer »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #703 on: January 16, 2013, 04:03:56 PM »
But to thing he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach
Oh come on now, you're ruining the litvaks fun by bringing the non-lubavitch chasidic perspective in this :D

It's much easier to pick on the little guy who's always belittled (Chabad) than to take on the entire chasidic world again.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #704 on: January 16, 2013, 04:06:46 PM »
Oh come on now, you're ruining the litvaks fun by bringing the non-lubavitch chasidic perspective in this :D

It's much easier to pick on the little guy (Chabad) than to take on the entire chasidic world again.

Lol

After all "Yufutzu" is a part of the entire chasiddus, and was told to the baal shem tov not to the baal hatanya, so we all have to do our part...  :)
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