Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146308 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #705 on: January 16, 2013, 04:08:45 PM »
After all "Yufutzu" is a part of the entire chasiddus, and was told to the baal shem tov not to the baal hatanya, so we all have to do our part...  :)
:) indeed.

OT, but Is the niggun "Aimosai k'osi mar, l'cheshyafutzu maynosecha chutzah" a lubavitch one or from another composer?
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Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #706 on: January 16, 2013, 04:12:15 PM »
:) indeed.

OT, but Is the niggun "Aimosai k'osi mar, l'cheshyafutzu maynosecha chutzah" a lubavitch one or from another composer?

Almost sure it's lubavitch, but no source to that. haven't heard that anywhere else yet.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #707 on: January 16, 2013, 04:35:50 PM »
He never said he was moshiach.  If anything he said that the previous rebbe, his rebbe, was moshiach.
He implied many times that he is somehow an embodiment of his father in law. Sounds nuts but that what iv heard from reliable chabad ppl. Obviously many belive this as their bases of thinking he's the messia based on him saying that his father in law was/is etc_ He did mostly speak cryptically, hence so many confused chassidim. 

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #708 on: January 16, 2013, 04:36:52 PM »
He implied many times that he is somehow an embodiment of his father in law. Sounds nuts but that what iv heard from reliable chabad ppl. Obviously many belive this as their bases of thinking he's the messia based on him saying that his father in law was/is etc_ He did mostly speak cryptically, hence so many confused chassidim. 
Embodiment of his father in law? Please provide sources, not hearsay.

I've learned his sichos and maimorim for years.  They're not cryptic at all. Open a likutei sichos on the parsha in hebrew sometime for yourself, you may just enjoy yourself.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 04:41:33 PM by Dan »
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #709 on: January 16, 2013, 04:51:59 PM »
Wow! This thread sure is active, I go out for an hour and  I miss 5 pages.

I just wanted to address 1 very valid point which was raised:


I believe that in many ways, this is the crux of my issue with Chabad (and many other groups and individuals in Judaism). If I have learned one thing in life it is that people who try to figure things out based on their own "research" are on the proverbial "slippery slope". Succesful people in life (not just religion) all have their mentor/guru/rabbi etc..

We simply cannot trust ourselves entirely.

When a group sees no problem with relying on the text and not the non-tangible wisdom of leaders they are already somewhat astray IMO.


Relying on your own judgement is indeed very dangerous, that is why the Rebbe (tried) to prevent that from happening. In the years between 5748 (when the Rebbetzin passed away) and 5752 (When he had his stroke) the Rebbe was very intensively preparing for a time when he would no longer be around physically (of course Chassidim refused to realize that and only woke up when it was too late).

One of the things that the Rebbe spoke about a lot in those years, was for the Chassidim to stop relying on him for their questions and instead appoint a 'Mashpia' who would be their mentor in all things Ruchnius. This system has been in place for generations before but in the years before Gimmel Tammuz the Rebe got really intensive about it. Calling it a Bakashah Nafshis for every Chossid to appoint a Mashpia with whom he can consult in matters of Avodas Hashem.

Chassidim nowadays do not rely on their own judgement and understanding of texts, each Chossid has (in addition to his Rov, Rosh Yeshivah etc.) a Mashpia. As you mentioned the texts are very inconclusive to someone trying to make it out on his own but we don't get our Hashkafah directly from the texts alone.
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Offline doublejay

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #710 on: January 16, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »
You seem very earnest in your questions unlike many here. So although most were answered in this thread I will attempt to answer them somewhat here just for you.

 1. Chabad has their rabonim, others have their rabonim. Same way Chabad doesn't eat chalav stam ecen though many rabonim say it's ok.

2. Says who? That is a bad stereotype. Besides that there is so much to learn from within Chabad itself which could take a lifetime, why wouldn't the focus be from their own teachers? If you learn in one school why wouldn't you give that school your focus?

3. Mostly this thread was defending a concept as not being kfira, by asking this question you are agreeing that the ideology has a source in halacha, you just want to know why to choose that source. Like in number 1. Chabad has their rabbanim and they can choose where a halacha comes from. The idea of moshiach from the dead is not a daily topic of old, so like most modern halachas there isn't necessarily a handed down mesorah of who to follow, hence a Rav I believe has some room in this matter to find his own source. Do you have a mesorah fro  your zayde moshiach must come from the living. I'd be fascinated to see it.

Appreciate the response.

1) So do you disagree with Dan?
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.

2) I am not saying that you should go learn Torah from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Abuchatzeira, The Belzer Rebbe, or Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, etc. just appreciate [at least some of these Rabbanim and] their greatness enough to visit them, shake their hands, ask for a bracha, etc. Go to their asifos. Their siyumim. etc. Don't separate. - Are you saying I am dreaming when I feel that this is the case?

3) For now, I'd like to avoid the "is it kefira question" because then it just turns into a scholarly debate and I am no scholar. I think people get lost in the micro when they should be thinking macro.

Bottom line, I would be really weary of being in the boat of a group with the issues in points 1 & 2. - If we can clear those up and you show me that they are non-issues and I am mistaken then I will think more on issue #3 and post my thoughts.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #711 on: January 16, 2013, 05:05:17 PM »
Appreciate the response.

1) So do you disagree with Dan?
2) I am not saying that you should go learn Torah from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Abuchatzeira, The Belzer Rebbe, or Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, etc. just appreciate [at least some of these Rabbanim and] their greatness enough to visit them, shake their hands, ask for a bracha, etc. Go to their asifos. Their siyumim. etc. Don't separate. - Are you saying I am dreaming when I feel that this is the case?

3) For now, I'd like to avoid the "is it kefira question" because then it just turns into a scholarly debate and I am no scholar. I think people get lost in the micro when they should be thinking macro.

Bottom line, I would be really weary of being in the boat of a group with the issues in points 1 & 2. - If we can clear those up and you show me that they are non-issues and I am mistaken then I will think more on issue #3 and post my thoughts.
1. Its my understanding that Dan replied with a misunderstanding of your question. I don't think our answers have a connection. 

2. ROFLMAO!!! Do we go to their siyumim? Did you really just ask me if we go to their siyumim. I can't anymore I just can't.

3. OK I'll wait.

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Offline Ergel

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #712 on: January 16, 2013, 05:14:43 PM »
And 3 more places from earlier this thread.

Thanks. The abarbenel is very clear. The gemara in sanhedrin, according to one deah in rashi has no relevance, yesh layein what the other deah holds. I hope to look up the other mareh mekomos later. 
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #713 on: January 16, 2013, 05:28:39 PM »
I'd like to point out that in 700+ posts there hasn't been one halachik source from a Rishon or Achron saying moshiach must be from the living.

Also some more food for thought.

 (Sanhedrin 98b):

"Rav said 'If he [Moshiach] is from the living, [then he is] like Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi]; if he is from the dead, [then he is] like Daniel, the delightful one.' " (also See Maharsha).

Based on the Talmud quoted above, the Sdei Chemed--an encyclopedic work by the renowned Halachic authority Rabbi Chaim Chizkiya Medini--quotes approvingly (Pe'as Hasadeh, Maareches Ha'alef, 70) a long letter by Rabbi Aryeh Leib Lipkin (grandson of "Hagahos Ben Aryeh" published in Vilna ShaS), where he explains--among other fascinating points concerning the ultimate Redemption--that if we have sufficient merit, then Moshiach will be "from the dead"!

The Midrash (Bamidbar Rabba 11:3) says that the future Redeemer will be revealed, then concealed, then revealed again. This is quoted by Rabbeinu Bachayei and by the Chasam Sofer on the Torah (both at end of Parshas Shmos). The latter writes: "This is a great test that the Redeemer is concealed [Moshe] . . . and so it will be at the time of our righteous Moshiach [that] he will be concealed after [his] revelation, as mentioned in the Midrash."

From the Zohar (Shmos 8b)--as explained in Zohar Harakiya and Shaar Hagilgulim (ch. 13, both by the ARI-Zal, Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, one of the greatest Kabbalists)--it is clear that the man designated to be Moshiach is born naturally in this world, then the soul of Moshiach in the heavenly "Garden of Eden" is bestowed upon him so that he realizes that he is Moshiach, then he becomes concealed, ascending to heaven, and only afterwards is he revealed to the full extent, the whole Jewish people recognizing him as Moshiach.

The great Torah commentator and philosopher, Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (1437-1508), who wrote three lengthy works about the Scriptural prophecies and our Sages' sayings concerning Moshiach and the Geula, writes in Yeshuos Meshicho (Jerusalem, 5753, p.104) that it is possible that Moshiach will be taken from this world and brought into the heavenly "Garden of Eden," continuing: "You should not find it difficult [to understand] that the King Moshiach will be among those who arise in the Resurrection," quoting the above Talmudic passage (Sanhedrin 98b) as proof that this can be so. Here we see the same three stages of revelation, concealment and revelation.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #714 on: January 16, 2013, 05:29:48 PM »
2. ROFLMAO!!! Do we go to their siyumim? Did you really just ask me if we go to their siyumim. I can't anymore I just can't.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #715 on: January 16, 2013, 05:33:15 PM »
Trivia question: How was the rebbe called up to the torah, what names did he have the gabboim use?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #716 on: January 16, 2013, 05:41:27 PM »
יעמוד אדונינו מורנו ורבינו בן הרב לוי יצחק
Why? How do other Chassidim call up their Rebbes?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #717 on: January 16, 2013, 06:09:43 PM »
יעמוד אדונינו מורנו ורבינו בן הרב לוי יצחק
Why? How do other Chassidim call up their Rebbes?
you sure or did the also mention his shver?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #718 on: January 16, 2013, 06:23:19 PM »
"Since the passing of his father in law, the Rebbe had often quoted the passage in the Holy Zohar that "a tzaddik, when he passes away, is to be found more in this lowest world than during his lifetime on earth." This was said to prove that the Rebbe is still available to be reached and still operates as the head of Chabad-Lubavitch. Moreover, he was/is the head (Nasi) of the klal Israel (entire Jewish People). [79] Some saw this as attempting to counter disbelief in the idea that passing away invalidates a candidate to be Moshiach."
-from wiki.
Basically he used to imply that;
A His shver is still around
B: His shver is the Nosi/Moshiach
C:that he (himself) is the Nosi/Moshiach
He caused all the confusion among all his chassidim, some think he's still alive, all think he's moshiach, and a few think he's more powerful than a mere human...
He consistently confused the masses with (what some believe to be nonsense and gibberish) about secret worlds and mystical concepts way above the pay-grade of the average chossid. This caused many to become enchanted and solidified his power base.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #719 on: January 16, 2013, 06:31:42 PM »
He consistently confused the masses with (what some believe to be nonsense and gibberish) about secret worlds and mystical concepts way above the pay-grade of the average chossid. This caused many to become enchanted and solidified his power base.
I advise you to delete this (and apologize) before this thread gets way out of hand.