Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[Moshe Green]

A lot to unpack here and frankly after a month + of reserve duty I don't have the energy or the inclination.

At the current rate the haredim will end up serving in the army because the reservists can't handle the burden anymore. That's the bottom line. Everything else is window dressing and politics.

Eta
Also as an aside I spent a lot of time on bases that had swimming pools and we weren't allowed to use it.. infantry comparing themselves to the perks air force has is always a thing even with hilonim and never gets anywhere.

The way the Israeli Army is set up is to have a strong, solid, small, basic professional army and if need be, call up reservists for a short war.
 
Why in the world did Israel get themselves into a situation where they need to rely on unprofessional reservists for a year+?

You are writing that the reservists can't continue like this and you are correct, but what's going on goes against the whole idea of a reservist army.

[moko]

A lot to unpack here and frankly after a month + of reserve duty I don't have the energy or the inclination.

At the current rate the haredim will end up serving in the army because the reservists can't handle the burden anymore. That's the bottom line. Everything else is window dressing and politics.

Eta
Also as an aside I spent a lot of time on bases that had swimming pools and we weren't allowed to use it.. infantry comparing themselves to the perks air force has is always a thing even with hilonim and never gets anywhere.

so essentially, keeping mesorah/ halacha/ etc is just a "perk". Got it

[LongTimeLurker]

so essentially, keeping mesorah/ halacha/ etc is just a "perk". Got it

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations. They sound like a lot of other  recruits complaining about all sorts of things.

Someone pinged me to add my .02 but I honestly don't have the patience so I'll leave you to your echo chamber.

If you live in Israel and sit down to enjoy the Seder, remember the young men and women who are not at a Seder, in the field, so you can keep the Seder mitzvot super diligently at the highest level , and how you chose not to join them.

רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל".

[moko]

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations. They sound like a lot of other  recruits complaining about all sorts of things.

Someone pinged me to add my .02 but I honestly don't have the patience so I'll leave you to your echo chamber.

If you live in Israel and sit down to enjoy the Seder, remember the young men and women who are not at a Seder, in the field, so you can keep the Seder mitzvot super diligently at the highest level , and how you chose not to join them.

רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל".

pretty sure we're not talking about voluntary joining ...
 Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army

[zh cohen]

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations.

Indeed. But then the argument for Chareidim serving has to change.

What the army has been saying is that serving will not infringe on a person's religious observance in any way. Chareidim have been screaming from the rooftops that this isn't possible.

Now that we know that the Chareidim were right, we can have an honest discussion of whether the security needs of the country should override the Chareidim's religious practices.

[Yehuda57]

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations.

I haven't followed this conversation all that closely, but I have lurked somewhat. This response calls into question the good faith and honesty in all your posts. The article starts off specifically stating he's not talking about mikvah everyday but basics like kosher food and not dorming with the opposite gender. If you are going to compare that to not being able to use a swimming pool, and then further compare people who don't want to compromise on basic halacha to the rasha reveals how little credence you give to the opposing view, thus making any honest discussion or argument impossible.

Your arguments about how needed the Chareidim are would carry more weight if the army did not show at every step they don't want Chareidim to join, or at least they don't want them to join and remain Chareidim.

[LongTimeLurker]

I haven't followed this conversation all that closely, but I have lurked somewhat. This response calls into question the good faith and honesty in all your posts. The article starts off specifically stating he's not talking about mikvah everyday but basics like kosher food and not dorming with the opposite gender. If you are going to compare that to not being able to use a swimming pool, and then further compare people who don't want to compromise on basic halacha to the rasha reveals how little credence you give to the opposing view, thus making any honest discussion or argument impossible.

Your arguments about how needed the Chareidim are would carry more weight if the army did not show at every step they don't want Chareidim to join, or at least they don't want them to join and remain Chareidim.

There are two different parts of the article. One is a general complaint of haredim regarding gender separation and access to mehadrin food and I didn't even address that because I see that as a problem and didn't feel the need to rehash.

The second part talks about chabadnikim in the hashmonaim brigade which is a fully pro haredi environment and the complaint about non daily access to a mikvah, which I am indeed being dismissive of.

If you don't follow a thread closely and also don't read the article closely perhaps you should also refrain from commenting.

[LongTimeLurker]

Indeed. But then the argument for Chareidim serving has to change.

What the army has been saying is that serving will not infringe on a person's religious observance in any way. Chareidim have been screaming from the rooftops that this isn't possible.

Now that we know that the Chareidim were right, we can have an honest discussion of whether the security needs of the country should override the Chareidim's religious practices.

The goal posts keep getting moved.

I do not think there is a real good faith effort on the haredi side.

[Just A Jew]

The second part talks about chabadnikim in the hashmonaim brigade which is a fully pro haredi environment and the complaint about non daily access to a mikvah, which I am indeed being dismissive of.

The complaint is that they were explicitly told they'd be able to go, and that changed. Even after they figured out a way to go to nearby springs, with permission, higher ups made it stop. You have to admit that it looks like (someone in) the army is actively trying to keep them from keeping their mesorah and what was promised to them before joining.

And while the swimming pool complaint may be common from other units, the complaint there is unfairness in recreation. The complaint here is that the army (air force, whatever) makes recreational swimming available for some soldiers, so when it comes to non-recreational mikvah, they should definitely be making accommodations.

Ultimately, it comes down to what @zh cohen said:
 

Indeed. But then the argument for Chareidim serving has to change.

What the army has been saying is that serving will not infringe on a person's religious observance in any way. Chareidim have been screaming from the rooftops that this isn't possible.

Now that we know that the Chareidim were right, we can have an honest discussion of whether the security needs of the country should override the Chareidim's religious practices.

[moko]

The goal posts keep getting moved.

I do not think there is a real good faith effort on the haredi side.

no one, including themselves is denying that. The other side is the one saying that they will accommodate, but that turns out to be hogwash

[Yehuda57]

There are two different parts of the article. One is a general complaint of haredim regarding gender separation and access to mehadrin food and I didn't even address that because I see that as a problem and didn't feel the need to rehash.

The second part talks about chabadnikim in the hashmonaim brigade which is a fully pro haredi environment and the complaint about non daily access to a mikvah, which I am indeed being dismissive of.

If you don't follow a thread closely and also don't read the article closely perhaps you should also refrain from commenting.

Aha. So you ignore the first part without saying so, and then are dismissive about a unit not doing exactly what it is designed to do? (as @zh cohen said quite succinctly)

You claim no good faith on the part of Chareidim, yet are dismissive of the real life experiences of the ones who actually do the very thing you want them to do and enlist.

One of the reasons I haven't engaged on this much is because I'm very sympathetic to your side of the argument. Even though I ascribe to ideological views that oppose it, I'm emotionally drawn to it. So I'm quite torn.

But seeing what happens when Chareidim enlist without being drafted, and the disingenuous gaslighting attitudes of the enlistment proponents makes me think the Chareidi side is correct.

[moko]

Aha. So you ignore the first part without saying so, and then are dismissive about a unit not doing exactly what it is designed to do? (as @zh cohen said quite succinctly)

You claim no good faith on the part of Chareidim, yet are dismissive of the real life experiences of the ones who actually do the very thing you want them to do and enlist.

One of the reasons I haven't engaged on this much is because I'm very sympathetic to your side of the argument. Even though I ascribe to ideological views that oppose it, I'm emotionally drawn to it. So I'm quite torn.

But seeing what happens when Chareidim enlist without being drafted, and the disingenuous gaslighting attitudes of the enlistment proponents makes me think the Chareidi side is correct.

couldn't have said it better myself

[zh cohen]

I do not think there is a real good faith effort on the haredi side.

The Charedi position can seem disingenuous, because they make two different (but in my view equally important) claims for why they don't serve.

1 - People who are learning Torah full time should not have to serve.
2 - A condition for a frum person serving is that it should not unnecessarily infringe on their religious practice.

For context, I believe (and I think this is the Lubavitch approach) that every man should serve after they leave Yeshiva. For most Lubavitchers this would be after a year or two of kollel.

This addresses the first concern (since they are no longer learning) and reduces the second concern.

If army leadership was sincere about wanting Chareidim to serve for security reasons, they would have made sure that the Chareidim who do enlist do not encounter issue #2 above.

To be clear, I fully believe that you (LongTimeLurker) are coming from a good place in your desire to see more people step up. I hope that if you come across those (secular people) who are creating barriers to Charedi service, you are just as passionate in demanding that they act in good faith.

[gozalim]

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations. They sound like a lot of other  recruits complaining about all sorts of things

legend had it that ר חיים טאשקענטער being drafted into the red army during WWII didn't miss a day of Mikvah, במסירת נפש כפשוטו

[moko]

Honestly if you join the army and you expect to have time to go to the mikvah every day then the army has done a bad job setting expectations. They sound like a lot of other  recruits complaining about all sorts of things.

Someone pinged me to add my .02 but I honestly don't have the patience so I'll leave you to your echo chamber.

If you live in Israel and sit down to enjoy the Seder, remember the young men and women who are not at a Seder, in the field, so you can keep the Seder mitzvot super diligently at the highest level , and how you chose not to join them.

רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל".

there are plenty of Israeli officials and general public saying the same for all shmiras mitzvos , davening, kashrus, etc

[LongTimeLurker]

To be clear, I fully believe that you (LongTimeLurker) are coming from a good place in your desire to see more people step up. I hope that if you come across those (secular people) who are creating barriers to Charedi service, you are just as passionate in demanding that they act in good faith.

Without going into detail, I do.

[Saulius]

נמות ולא נתגייס נל'ן -  We will die and not enlist!

[Just A Jew]

נמות ולא נתגייס נל'ן -  We will die and not enlist!

I'm sorry, where do you live?

[LongTimeLurker]

נמות ולא נתגייס נל'ן -  We will die and not enlist!

Just for context I think this has wracked up hundreds of thousands of views across Israeli social media